Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I welcome the Minister to the House. The Bill is supported by the Fianna Fáil Party. I have made many efforts to bring forward the Bill but Dáileanna have collapsed and it is difficult to get Private Members' Bills passed. We now have new politics and I am delighted with the new approach which will bring about results. I received tremendous support from the late Brian Lenihan, the Minister's former constituency colleague, who worked with me on the Bill. Even when he was not in the best of form he came along to see if he could get it through, but the Government at the time fell. I thank the Leader of the House and the Fianna Fáil Whip who arranged time for the Bill.

The Bill provides an opportunity to register one of the most important documents a person can make, which is a will. Most countries have such a system in place, and I believe Malta is the only country which does not. In Ireland, we have 10,826 solicitors and 7,807 law firms. A solicitor or a law firm can make a will, as can an individual, but the register of the will is kept in the solicitor's office. In these circumstances, a will's book is held in a secure location in the offices of a legal firm. Some legal firms have difficulties and go out of business, and there is a danger of the records being lost.

Brexit is also causing issues because a number of UK based solicitors are registering with the Law Society of Ireland. This means they can make wills here. People are more transient now than in the past. Someone could make a will in Cork and there may never be anything more about it. Before coming to the House a few hours ago, I got a call from a man in Cork whose father transferred land to his two brothers, and while his mother left 46 acres of the farm to him, it was repossessed. A law firm found his mother's will in its office. He is very aggrieved. His problem will not be solved by the will. What would solve it is if records were kept by the General Register Office, which is located in Roscommon as it happens.

I am trying to be brief and not make a big speech because I have rehearsed this quite a lot over the period and it is better to explain it in straightforward terms. All I want is a voluntary registration of a will on an A4 sheet of paper stating when and where a will was made, where it is held, who made it and where it is available.That information cannot be made available to any family member or inquisitive neighbour - the neighbour would not be allowed to see it, number one. If a family member is deceased, the family gets the original death certificate and on production of that certificate, it will be informed by the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages that a will was made. That is the kernel of this issue. It is not rocket science. Since the foundation of the State, we have had a register and licences for dogs or a television. We register everything. Roughly 30,000 people die every year and only about 10,000 cases go to probate. If a will is found after probate takes place, and two very eminent solicitors are sitting on either side of me so I am certainly blessed, it is null and void. My colleagues can confirm that but that is the procedure. We have an excellent probate officer and probate service. It is well organised and a great indication of very sophisticated administration in Ireland. We have a quality Land Registry, probate services and registration of births, deaths and marriages. These services are very important. It is very important that the State can keep a record. There are other organisations that have tried to set up these services but they come and go.

I am very anxious that this be debated so that an awareness is created. Having this debate in this House makes people aware that they should make a will. It will not kill them. Some people felt that if they made a will, they were on their last legs. A will is vital. If even a young couple with an apartment or house and children dies intestate, there is complete confusion about who is entitled to what, where and when. Even the simplest things like family jewellery or cars can present a problem. I must say that solicitors have been very helpful. In October, they offered a special deal involving making a will. This is one advantage of having this debate in this House. Another is the opportunity to go through Committee Stage some time in the new year. I spoke to an eminent senior counsel who was quite satisfied with the general gist of this Bill - the fact that there is no disclosure or breach of confidentiality and making a will is a voluntary decision so that there will be no compulsory wills. If wills are made on a voluntary basis, there must be a voluntary code of practice. I think my colleagues said that at the beginning of the debate. One cannot bring in legislation saying that if a solicitor does not register a will, they could be prosecuted. It is just not practical. At this point in time, we want awareness. If this Bill becomes law, I would like the legal firms to say that they will register everything they have at the start through some arrangement, such as getting a copy of the books into the offices and registering them. It puts extra work on the Department, an office of which I am delighted to see in Roscommon town. I looked at the probate office, which was not that suitable because it does not hold the Registry of Birth, Deaths and Marriages. The key is to hold the Registry of Birth, Deaths and Marriages. One can then ensure one will have knowledge regarding the will that is being made.

I am sure that in his work as a Deputy, the Minister has come across issues like this over the years. When I bring it up, I get some hard luck stories. A man told me today that the prodigal sons were brought back and he was thrown out. I do not know if that happened in biblical terms but he certainly felt very aggrieved. This sparks off contact with people around the country because so many people have been deprived. Is there anything worse than being deprived of a legitimate legacy from a father, uncle or brother? We are talking about a simple will that says a person will inherit this property. Would it not be awful if in ten years' time, they find the will but probate has already taken place? That is the key. Any Members present know that in old times in rural Ireland, there would be two or three solicitors' firms in a town. When a person died, the solicitors would go to the funeral and ask the family to come in on Monday morning as they had some documents for family members to look at. They would then gather together on Monday morning, settle up and that was it. Now somebody could die in Galway with most deaths being broadcast on Shannonside, Midwest Radio or Northern Sound. However, a solicitor is not listening to death notices every day to find out whether one of their clients has died. The solicitor will not hear about it. If you look at the Law Society Gazette, which I think comes out every month, you will find ten requests asking whether someone has knowledge of such a will, where it is and whether it can be found. That does help locate those particular wills. I do not want to labour this point because I have gone through it on a few occasions. At the time, there was support across this House. Former Senator Fergal Browne from Fine Gael, who was from Carlow, took a tremendous interest in it. This was in the period from 2002 to 2007. Senator Browne took a tremendous interest in the Bill and pushed it very hard. In fact, he brought out another Bill later on that concerned pre-nuptial agreements. I am not sure if it was successful. This Bill aimed to ensure that when you go up with €100, you do not come down with €50.