Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge the Minister of State's presence. This Bill supersedes the previous motion is closely linked to the debate on the establishment of a citizens' assembly. Like other speakers, I was very disappointed that additional speaking time was not allocated because there are Members who wished to participate in the debate on the motion to which I refer but who were afforded the opportunity to do so. I appreciate that it was agreed on the Order of Business but if we are debating an issue such as a citizens' assembly, we should give the motion the respect it deserves by allowing all speakers to participate if they so wish and not dilute or constrain it, as happened in this instance.

The Bill before us relates to the use of the electoral register and the selection of the participants in the citizens' assembly but unfortunately it does not clarify the selection procedure to be used and the research methodology to be adopted. I am not sure whether that has been decided upon but will the Minister clarify the position because there are various methods that could be used by any research company to select participants to participate in a citizens' referendum?

I very much agree with Senator McDowell's comments earlier today on the citizens' assembly. I agree that a citizens' assembly will do little to progress clear thinking on any issue because, ultimately, it is being established with very clear objectives, which, of their nature, are very rigid in the context of the work programme. If one looks at academic investigations into the establishment of citizens' assemblies in Australia and in British Columbia in Canada, there are varying views as to the usefulness of such assemblies in progressing issues, particularly where the work programme is established by the government or the executive and where it is refined in nature, as is the case in this instance. We are establishing a citizens' assembly but we have already made the conclusions ourselves. I was joking with someone in the cafeteria yesterday about the citizens' assembly and I called it the "kicking to touch" assembly because, in theory, that is what this involves. We are kicking issues down the road that should be debated in the Houses of the Oireachtas by the people who are elected to represent the citizens. This is duplicating the role. I disagreed with the previous citizens' assembly at the time as well. Why should Members who are elected by the people to this House be sitting on a citizens' assembly as well as other people? It is not clear how these people will be selected. I am not going to cast aspersions on whatever company will be appointed following the tendering process, but questions are being raised in the academic sphere on the usefulness of such assemblies. Those questions have not been answered by anything I heard earlier or while listening to the Minister during debate in the Dáil yesterday.

I would like clarification on the method of selection. All politicians, including me, are quick to validate a referendum as the best means of deriving a result with regard to what the people really think. Let us examine the results of the recent referendum across the water. I know there was no independent referendum commission, it was both sides, for and against, which I think was a mistake. Notwithstanding that, only 71% of the registered electorate in the UK turned out to vote. One is not dealing with 50% of the British electorate, but a percentage of the turnout who voted to leave. There are arguments one can make on both sides. Why do people not vote? Was there a lack of engagement?

There are issues around referenda that should be debated and discussed in this House before we rush down a path of trying to find solutions to very delicate issues which are facing our society. There is a very strong lobby around particular issues of a sensitive social nature. Such issues deserve to be the subject of thorough and measured debates. There is a rush to repeal the eighth amendment and that will be one part of the work of the citizens' assembly. There are many pressing issues facing the Irish people. I refer, for example, to those who are seeking the right to a job or a home and individuals who are being evicted from their homes by banks. We saw the case in County Monaghan of a farmer whose animals were shot by the Army. There are other issues that could be deliberated upon. If, as the Government wishes, we are establishing a citizen's assembly, are we not undermining it by prescribing a dedicated and very narrow work programme for it? If we had confidence in the assembly, would we not allow its members to determine the work programme?

I do not agree with the methodology being used. I have reservations about a third party - a private company - being given access to the electoral register in order that it might decide the membership of the assembly. I have reservations about the latter. They may be valid or otherwise, but my reservations relate to the methodologies being used. Both Houses of the Oireachtas deserve to know what are the methodologies.