Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour) | Oireachtas source

The Senator is correct. I have heard him debate this issue many times with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection. I will not go over the details again. In fairness, the Senator has told me that he does not wish for me to do that. A few brief comments have been made several times. It is important to note again that the decision to wind up defined benefit schemes does not rest with the sponsoring employer but with the trustee. We have also debated the trustee's responsibilities, engagement and consultation.

Generally speaking, there is merit in the Senator's proposal. However, it would give rise to unintended consequences. As we exit the recession and enter recovery, we need to be careful in the context of how we balance measures. Many of the Senator's points need to be considered as part of an overall review of pensions. I look forward to starting that process with him as early as possible in the term of a new Government. It would be an excellent debate to begin in committee hearings, from which a strong report could be produced. Like the Senator, I believe that pensions will present one of the next Government's greatest challenges. How we deal with it will be important and affect the country for decades.

The policy on defined benefit schemes has been to nurse them back into compliance. We are getting there. The average level of funding for non-compliant schemes was approximately 78% of the funding standard. This figure is based on a review of 140 of the 300 schemes. Work and research have been done but there is much that needs to be addressed. Some of it can be handled through guidance from the Departments of Finance and Social Protection on how trustees should operate. The statistics are new to me. There are approximately 62,000 schemes, each of which has a set of trustees and governance measures. The number of trustees must run into the thousands.

I will be brief because the Senator asked me to be civil. I cannot accept his proposals.