Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I commend Senator Wilson on bringing forward this Bill. He is a man who is very much in touch with local democracy which is reflected in the Bill. I also commend the Minister, the Government and the Leader of the House for accepting the validity of the Bill and for allowing it to progress to Second Stage. I am fairly liberal in most things and on most issues I tend to think outside the box, but I am deeply conservative on matters concerning parliamentary democracy. The fragility of democracy can be seen from history and from world experience. I have time for the Taoiseach, we were in college together for a couple of years and we were good friends before we came up here, but I think the biggest mistake he made in his political life was his attempt to abolish this House. The people were offered a free kick at the backsides of politicians. Most thought that people would not be able to resist that opportunity.Whether it was the Dáil or the Seanad, it would not have mattered. I felt they were going to kick us out but they did not. They sat back and had a good look at it. There was not a very big turnout, I must admit, but a majority of those who did vote voted to retain this House, with all its flaws and failings. The more representative a democracy we have, the better it is.

Senator Norris has consistently decried the panel system as a kind of rotten borough. I vote on the educational panel as a graduate of UCD, and it is a very distant, remote type of election. People do not get to meet the candidates, there is no one-on-one and it is virtually a pamphlet election, with our letterboxes full of pamphlets from the various candidates. I want to stress we are very fortunate to have the calibre of people that the universities provide and elect to these Houses, not least the six who are here in the current Seanad and also the other great people who came into public life on that road, like Mary Robinson, Joe O'Toole and others who made a huge contribution in their time.

Mr. de Valera has been mentioned by one or two speakers. Whatever else about him, he was a superb tactician and a man who knew what it was to be elected. He has the greatest record of anyone in this country of winning elections, being in government and knowing how to do that. He looked at the Seanad at the time as something he had to fix because, naturally, any Taoiseach will want to make sure he has support in both Houses, as that is how democracy works.

It would be a farce if this was an open House and Government decisions could be overthrown. I do not see any alternative to the Whip system in a representative democracy. Despite a lot of airy-fairy talk about getting rid of Whips and getting rid of the confrontational democracy we have, this system has evolved in the United States and here not because it is perfect but because it is best practice. I honestly believe Mr. de Valera's idea of vocational panels was the best then and it is probably the best now. Senator Wilson wants to include county councillors in the franchise for by-elections, which is logical because, as they had a say in the original election, they should also have a say in the by-elections. It would also avoid the rather farcical situation that arose in that particular election - no disrespect to Senator Paul Coghlan - where the major Government party made a cock-up of it. Fair play, the Senator did well and he exploited that, and he is entitled to be here.

We must remember that county councillors are a very sophisticated electorate and they are themselves elected by the people. I do not know what the quota is in county council areas around the country but I know that for me to be a county councillor, I would need to get 2,500 votes to make a quota. Every councillor that votes is representing that number of people on average. As Senator Paul Coghlan said, they use that power very wisely and are very careful about it, and they use us, when we are elected, as a conduit to the corridors of power. We can serve them and help them, and enhance what they are able to do for themselves.

We have had a lot of talk about Seanad reform in the last five years. If I understood him correctly, Senator Cullinane said there will be no change in this coming election. I am not sure I will be here in five years' time, if I am re-elected this time, but if I had to bet, I would say it will be the same then because, despite all the reform ideas, there is nothing coming forward that is any better than the system we have.