Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for his response to my initial queries. It sheds a little more light on the response we received on Second Stage. Reference to a seven-year renewable term would make a great deal more sense. The problem is the way in which the legislation is written. It refers to a number of years, months and-or days. That leaves it up to the commission. The legislation is not prescriptive so the commission could decide to give a term of five years. Section 6A states: "A person may be appointed to an office to which this section applies for a term specified by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to be a period of a number of years (or a number of years and months or days)." It does not state anywhere in the legislation, and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong, that it goes back to the commission for renewal.

The Minister's response confirms one of the fears I expressed last week, and which relates not just to this Government but to any future Government or future Ceann Comhairle. The Seanad is an independent House of Parliament but the Clerk of the Seanad position would be decided, effectively, by the Ceann Comhairle as head of the commission. The Ceann Comhairle is the Ceann Comhairle of the Dáil and the Cathaoirleach is the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, but the Cathaoirleach is not mentioned anywhere here. The Ceann Comhairle is the head of the commission but we are making a change here. There is no other equivalent principal officer or higher principal officer role of which I am aware, and the Minister's officials can correct me on this, where we have set a term limit to it in the service. The difference with the Clerk of the Dáil is that it is the highest rank in that office to which people could aspire to reach.

Clerk-Assistant of the Seanad is at principal officer level and Clerk of the Seanad is at higher principal officer level. Let us take the example of where one sets a term for them of five or seven years and the commission decides not to renew, for whatever reason. Let us say the relations of a future Clerk of the Seanad with a Ceann Comhairle or a commission were difficult, as happened a couple of years ago. Things do happen whereby a clerk must stand up for the independence of the office and the running of the House. The commission could decide that it did not like the way that individual dealt with a matter and decide not to reappoint that individual. It might appoint someone more pliable in that role. This legislation makes it possible to do that. I am not saying it will be done but it certainly leaves it open to be done.

The Dáil and the Seanad have been at loggerheads in the past, such as at the time of the referendum and at the time of nominations for Seanad by-elections. I do not wish to go over old ground but conflict between them does happen. If the Ceann Comhairle or the Government, which will have a majority on the commission, decided it did not like an individual or the way in which an individual carried out their duties, the commission with its majority of Government members could decide not to reappoint that person. As it stands the legislation is deficient because it does not discuss a person's reappointment. It refers to setting a term. As far as I can see, it does not say anywhere that when that term is committed, the person would go before the commission for re-evaluation and reappointment should the commission so decide. It is a short Bill and maybe it is there, but I cannot see it. There are genuine concerns here. It does not relate to this Government. It is about any future government or any future Ceann Comhairle. We could have a serious problem here.

If the Minister of State could respond to those questions, we will see where we go from there. The response he has given here today is slightly different to that given on Second Stage, which did not mention reappointment. The Minister of State probably just used the example of seven years. That would probably be a sensible term if it were provided for but that must be specified, and it must state "for renewal after seven years" so that it would not clash with a Seanad election. A commission could come in and say it was just doing it for five years and then there would be a new Clerk or Acting Clerk of the Seanad, as we have had in the Dáil for the last four and a half years. Legislation had to be brought in because of various issues, of which we are all aware. I would be interested to hear the Minister of State's response to those further queries.