Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I have come new to this today, but it is an area in which I have a keen interest because working in ports involves quite a degree of industrial relations management. My colleague who proposed today's amendments will be well aware of the difficulties, because in New Ross we gained considerable traffic and tonnage over the years due to the appalling industrial relations in the Port of Waterford, which was closed for decades. A balance must be struck in the industrial relations area between the rights of workers on the one hand and the solvency and success of businesses, which ultimately generate jobs, on the other.

I commend the Minister of State on the enormous amount of work he has done in an area in which he has quite a degree of expertise. Given all my years of dealing with unions, I often advise companies coming into Ireland that one is as well off, and perhaps better off, having a union, as it puts a structure on negotiations. As I noted earlier, the worst possible scenario is for different unions to be competing with each other. My one criticism, from my short observation of the legislation, is that we may be getting overly prescriptive. I found that in general good trade union officials were able to assess when a company was being fair and when competition required a stronger stance by the company. They were also able to identify when companies could make concessions or were being unfair to the workers. Ultimately, it was all about being fair and ensuring the viability of the company as well. The stakeholders in a company are not just the shareholders; they include the employees and the customers. They all become dependent on cohesiveness among them.

My experience in the past was that the less government or statutory intervention one had, the better it was. Leave it to the wisdom of the people, and when they are not able to get agreement, they will go to the Labour Court. There have been good people in the Labour Court, and the expertise has been there. It has always been a vehicle for avoiding conflict within a business. Even trade union officials have conceded to me that it is a failure on everyone's part, including that of the trade union, if the parties end up in conflict. It is not generally to the workers' benefit either.We have seen entrenched trade union conflicts in various companies ultimately being a factor in job losses, which nobody wants to see. I commend the Minister of State on what he has done but I am inclined to argue against the excessive provisions which have been included. I was never a fan of JLCs, which the Minister of State has mentioned. I was friendly with a number of individual employers in the construction business who had left many people go but needed certain employees with a little skill, although not on a full-time basis. People on the dole were prepared to work in some instances for reasonable rates between €12 and €14 an hour, but the JLC stated it had to be €18 or €19. At the time the employer could not justify paying this amount, so the people remained unemployed. This is one example of where the State over prescribed rather than leaving it to those at local level and individual negotiations between the members, the company and the unions. This is a far more satisfactory set-up than big brother prescribing in too much detail what employers and employees need to do.