David Cullinane (Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

We are here to practise politics. We tried to turn the Seanad into something that it was never meant to be. As one of the Houses of the Oireachtas, it is a political Chamber. Senator Mooney made an interesting contribution. He started by saying that he did not want to rain on anyone's parade but he gave us a monsoon of criticism of elements of the report. I agree with him regarding many of the issues that he raised but, having said that, one cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs. The difficulty with Seanad reform is that for every proposal someone makes, there are five more ideas in contention. That has always been the case. The people who sat on the review group had to consider all of those ideas, as well as a mountain of previous reports. If they also paid heed to all of the navel gazing on Seanad reform that took place over decades, I do not know how they managed to prepare a report at all. They did their job, however, by producing a report that stayed within the confines of the Constitution and I think they made decent proposals. I have my own views on Seanad reform but they have produced what are possibly the fairest of proposals.That should be acknowledged because it was a good and decent job of work.

The difficulty is that I would go beyond the Constitution. I firmly believe that from the outset this issue should have been put to the constitutional referendum. The major problem with the Seanad is that it has always lacked democratic legitimacy and does not have real powers. One can say the same about local government, on which we had umpteen debates about reforming it. We have a centralised system of governance. One thing the Dáil will never surrender is power to either the Seanad or local government. The reason we have weak local government and the reason the Seanad has never been the Chamber it could possibly be is that nobody was able or willing to grasp the nettle and say the Seanad needs to be given more powers. If the Seanad and local government are given more powers, that power has to come from somewhere. From where does it come? It comes from the centre, from where the power is already, and it is reluctant to give it up. That is the reality. It is the backdrop in which we have always tried to get Seanad reform, as limited as it could possibly be.

In regard to some of the proposals made, the reason the Taoiseach did not agree with this being put to the Constitutional Convention is that he had given the commitment to hold a referendum. He had his plans to abolish the Seanad. That was set in train and was going to happen and because of that we lost an opportunity to have a good discussion at the Constitutional Convention on all of these issues. I still believe that is the way forward. We will possibly have a change of Government. Certainly my party will not support piecemeal reform of the Seanad. We are committed to holding a fresh Constitutional Convention which would look at radical reform not only of the Seanad but of local government and the Dáil, something we should have done from the outset. At some point we will arrive there because whatever we do here will still not be enough for many people.

I welcome the proposal to extend voting rights. That is hugely important, not just symbolically for the diaspora and citizens in the North. It would be a useful step forward. I do not agree with that the Taoiseach can appoint 11 nominees. That is undemocratic. Neither do I agree with the university panels. Some of my colleagues who get emotive when opposition to that is raised are not present. It is a hangover of the elitist nature of the Seanad which should be done away with. I understand it did not come within the remit of the working group, nonetheless it is not something that should or can remain in place.

The recommendation that only 30 of the 60 seats be elected by universal franchise is not enough. Each Member of either House of the Oireachtas should be elected by the people. If we were to move to what is proposed the vocational panels should not remain. It should be on a regional basis, possibly along the same lines as the European elections which would be far easier. Logistically, I am not sure how this will work. Were this proposal to be implemented, one would have to chose what panel to vote in. As huge numbers of people might vote on one panel and fewer might opt for another panel. How can a balance be achieved? Potentially, 2 million people could be registered to vote on one panel and, perhaps, 200,000 on a different panel and yet there would be the same number of seats. That is an issue we should return to.

If we are to have directly elected Members to this House from popular vote and a universal franchise it should be done in a more managed way and by geographical constituencies. While I welcome the vote for the diaspora and for those in the North, we need representation here as well. It has been mentioned that people from the North have been appointed to the Seanad previously. It would be a follow-on from the logic of the Good Friday Agreement, and all the other agreements, including the St. Andrews Agreement, to have democratic representation from citizens from the Unionist and Nationalist community in the North and for those who do no associate with any of those labels. That they should have an opportunity to be represented in this House would greatly enrich and benefit it.

Reference was made to the intentions of the voting public in the last referendum and we can naval-gaze on that. There are many opinions as to why people voted "No". If we want to crystallise it into one argument and one reason that motivated many people, they were concerned about giving the Government more power. They saw this as a sleight of hand from the Government. Rightly or wrongly, they saw it as a power grab. Despite everything that has happened and all the rhetoric that people do not have time for political institutions, people in this State and across Europe value democracy. One of the reasons there is huge sympathy for the Greek people and one of the reasons the European institutions are under such pressure is because people value democracy. People see a democratic deficit and think there is something not right, that there is an elite and that bullying is taking place. There is a democratic deficit which is at the heart of those powerful institutions. That is what motivates people. They believe in democracy. We saw that in action in Greece with its referendum and we saw it here in the marriage equality referendum a few weeks ago when huge numbers of people came out to vote because they value democracy. That was important and it shows that people value the institutions here. If they value the institutions we have a responsibility to make them fit for purpose. Despite the lack of surveys I have no doubt that the vast majority of people who voted "No" believe in reform and they want this House to be fit for purpose. They want this House to be stronger, to have democratic legitimacy, real powers and real functions. We have to make that a reality as best we can.

I thank the members of the working group, including our two guests, for their work. Given their remit they have done an outstanding job. People can quibble over different elements of the report but they have presented a fair set of proposals and that should be acknowledged. Unfortunately, because I am committed to much more radical Seanad reform that is where my head is at. Certainly one of the commitments of my party in the forthcoming election is that we will commit to a new constitutional referendum that will further consider this and other issues in regard to Dáil reform and local government reform.