Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome our two former colleagues, the learned gentlemen, Dr. Maurice Manning and Joe O'Toole. Dr. Manning is from Carlow-Kilkenny, where I am from. He is most welcome. I welcome the report. I was one of the first Senators invited to address a conference in Waterford some months after being elected. The subject of Seanad reform came up from the floor. I was quoted in the newspaper as saying that I believed it should be elected by public vote. That was one of the issues I raised. However, reform for reform's sake is something we need to be careful of in this House. We should remember that this is a body which is part of three bodies that legislate in this country: the President, the Dáil and the Seanad. We should not simply reform it because it looks good to reform it. If reform is going to happen we must ensure that it works. Will we have a better house if this House is reformed? That is the question we have to put in debates in both Houses.

If we reform the Seanad, where are we going to go to with it? Senator Norris made the point about a situation where there were numerous Independent Members. We are part of the Government parties and we have a minority in this House. We have no wish to go back to the previous situation. Page 16 of the report refers to 1936 when the Seanad was abolished due to the fact that it was delaying legislation. Would this country become ungovernable if the House became one not of Independents but of those with no political allegiances? People could come along and suddenly defeat legislation - I am not referring to voting with conscience. Anyway, how would we govern this country in that scenario?

At the time of the conference in Waterford I said the public should have a say and perhaps a public vote. I recommended at the time that perhaps a Seanad election could be run at the time of European Parliament and council elections by public vote. That would amount to a mid-term review of the Government of the day. However, let us consider the situation in America. Whether it is the House of Representatives or the Senate, the representations change mid-term. They have mid-term elections but then suddenly the government or the president of the day cannot get anything through. We have seen that situation. If legislation were to be defeated in this House, would we have to bring legislation to the effect that the Dáil or the Taoiseach of the day would have a veto on certain aspects of legislation if it was not passed? That needs to be considered.

There is another way to look at it. We have 43 Senators elected by the Members of the Oireachtas and the county councillors. People say that is undemocratic, but there is a particular idea behind it.We all know that each Seanad vote represents 1,000 people. That is the reason county councillors vote. Members of the Oireachtas and councillors elected 43 Senators and there were 43 constituencies in the last general election. If we had worked the panels so that the last person standing in each constituency qualified for a Seanad seat, the composition of this Seanad after the last election would be 17 Fianna Fáil Members, ten Fine Gael Members, six Labour Party Members, six Sinn Féin Members and four Independent Members, in addition to six University Senators and 11 Taoiseach's nominations. However, changes our boundaries mean that we will only have 40 constituencies in the next general election. Perhaps we could bring the number to 43 by providing for the automatic re-election of the Cathaoirleach and two Leas-Chathaoirligh.

This is the 12th time that the Seanad has been held up for review. The Taoiseach is serious about Seanad reform. He put a referendum the people on abolishing the Seanad. That proposal was rejected by the people and he is now establishing an implementation body. We need debates in both Houses, and with the general public, on how we should reform this House. We cannot reform it for reform's sake.

The report also deals with the notion of indirect elections and the idea that voters should register for a panel. I am from the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency and I was elected on the agricultural panel. If people have to register on panels, elections to the Seanad will become a celebrity contest. Senators might include people like Senator Norris, who is a well known celebrity, and people from the world of sports, such as Henry Shefflin from Kilkenny, who is known from Donegal to Kerry. If his name was on the ballot paper, he would get the vote. We would end up with a House of Independent Senators, some of whom might be affiliated to parties. That would be unworkable.

On the question of people in the diaspora who hold Irish passports, some my colleagues have pointed out that the electorate living outside the country might be larger than the population resident here. It is possible to hold two passports. The report suggests that those who do not pay tax in this country should not be allowed to vote. We could fine tune that proposal if necessary because a considerable number of people emigrated in recent years. Perhaps the franchise should be extended to those who paid tax in this country in the previous five years. Approximately 18 million people worldwide are of Irish descent. What kind of electorate would we have if all of these individuals registered to vote? What party in this country has the biggest connection to America and collects millions of dollars every year from the diaspora? We would have a House that is not representative of every party in this country because of people with certain aspirations. We all want a united Ireland but it is a matter of how we achieve it. We cannot allow all in the diaspora who hold an Irish passport to vote in Seanad elections. We might, however, consider extending the franchise to those who paid tax in this country in the previous five years.

Ms Mary O'Rourke made an excellent point when she described the Seanad is a political body which must discharge political functions. We cannot turn this Chamber into a talking shop. We are one of the three bodies, the President, the Dáil and the Seanad, which play a role in producing legislation. We cannot allow Government legislation to be held up because someone wants to get a headline. If we have a House in which the Government does not enjoy a majority, it will become ungovernable and we will return to Mr. de Valera's decision to abolish the former Seanad because he did not like what Senators were doing to his legislation. This House has served the country well since 1937. If we are going to reform it, we must do so in a proper manner that best serves the people of this country. We do not want reform for reform's sake. I do not criticise the authors of the report when I say it is the start of a discussion. When the legislation comes to this or the other House, we must allocate sufficient time for a proper debate on it and the Minister of the day must be prepared to accept amendments from both sides of the House. This will be one of the most important Bills to come before either House. We can debate budgets and the other matters that affect people's lives but this legislation will affect the lives of the people of this country for the next 100 or 200 years. I look forward to participating in further debates on the matter.