Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank both gentlemen and the members of their group for the work they did to bring forward these proposals on Seanad reform. I thank the Leader for outlining his concerns, many of which I share. As one who has relatively little experience in the Oireachtas but who has served in both the Seanad and the Dáil, I very much value the role of the Seanad in the Oireachtas. I have actually seen it at work in what some might call an unreformed Chamber. I will make my remarks in the context of my belief the Seanad has not done a bad job during the years. I have often said during debates with the Taoiseach, on the odd occasion he has seen fit to come here, that Seanad reform should take place in the context of overall Oireachtas reform.

I refer to reform of the Dáil, the committee system and the Seanad. I will be political for one moment and state what is an absolute fact: since the Seanad has been in the crosshairs since the Taoiseach saw fit to put its abolition to the people, which proposal I am happy they rejected, it has nearly come to be regarded as the only Chamber that needs to be reformed. I have seen the Seanad work very well. I have seen Senators from all parties and none, on all panels and from universities, do a particularly good job in scrutinising legislation, which is our primary role. As a Senator, I have written and published more legislation than I was able to produce in nearly four years in the Dáil. I have read more legislation than I did in the Dáil as a Deputy. I understand legislation a lot better for being in the Seanad. People should actually realise this and respect the fact that the Seanad has done a very good job. However, I have some concerns. My party published a detailed Seanad reform document which I discussed with both Mr. Joe O’Toole and Dr. Maurice Manning. I am happy that many points made within the report they have published and are presenting to us again today encompass points made in many of the reform documents many of us have brought forward. We want to see reform, albeit in the context of overall Oireachtas reform. Any future Government should commit to doing this.

I have grave concern about the manner in which this reform is being achieved. My saying this is no reflection on the two gentlemen present. The process is being rushed on the basis that the Taoiseach has said he will set up an implementation group that will produce legislation to be enacted before the end of the Government's term in office.If the term runs its full course then the Government will last until March or April 2016. I expect the legislation will be quite detailed. I have learned from my experience here that rushed legislation is poor legislation.

The composition of the implementation group is important. I, again, would like to put on the record of the House how disappointed I am that a Member of the current Seanad, and in particular the Leader of the Seanad, Senator Maurice Cummins, was not included in the working group. An existing Senator should have been included in the working group and I mean somebody who has worked through some reforms of the House. My belief is no reflection on the two gentlemen present who did their job, along with their colleagues. My grievance is more about who was selected by the Government to sit on the committee. I believe that the implementation group must have a representative group from the existing Seanad.

I do not think the Taoiseach has woken up to the fact that the Seanad should have equality and parity of esteem with the other House because this evening he will meet party leaders of the Dáil. That includes my party leader, Deputy Micheál Martin, who is the leader of Fianna Fáil in the Dáil, plus Gerry Adams who is the leader of Sinn Féin in the Dáil and the same for other party groups. What is wrong with us? I have had my moments with the Taoiseach but I am particularly interested in Seanad reform because I work here every single day. It would have been appropriate for the leaders of the Seanad groups to be included for the meeting.

That aside, I shall ask the delegation a few questions. I appreciate all the work that both gentlemen and their colleagues have put into the report but I am concerned about the short space of time left. How confident are both of them that legislation can be implemented during the remaining term of this Government? Have they been advised of any timeframes by Government in regard to the publication of the legislation and on bringing it forward? I heard Mr. Joe O'Toole say in the media that any changes would take place from the next Seanad election, not the one coming up but the one after that again.

It is very important that all parties and Independent groupings sign up to Seanad reform. As Senator Cummins has said, the problem with this report is that a number of reports already have been left on shelves. A referendum was passed on extending the franchise to other universities but it was never implemented. Even if legislation is passed in the Dáil and Seanad during the term of this Government, it is down to the political parties or whoever is going to be in the next Government, whatever shape that Government is going to have, to drive forward these changes.

I am gravely concerned about extending the vote to people who do not live in the jurisdiction. An argument for this can be made for people who live in the North of Ireland. We have North-South ministerial bodies, we have all-island parliamentary groupings and that type of thing plus we share a common cause. It may not be a popular to say the following but I will. When we do not have a handle on the actual number of people who may be able to vote then one could have multiples of people living outside of Ireland, or Irish passport holders, voting in a Seanad election than we have people who live in the Republic. That is a concern for me. I understand the reasoning behind making sure that Irish citizens abroad have a say but we should look at restricting the number of seats further. I am just uncomfortable with the situation. We are a small country and are not like France. I know that France and the US allow their citizens from abroad to vote in parliamentary elections. We have multiples of our population who are resident in Ireland but live abroad and these are people who are entitled to Irish passports. I do not know how one can make the distinction between people who are either born in Ireland and living abroad as an Irish passport holder and someone who has an Irish grandfather or grandmother and, therefore, gets an Irish passport. That is a major concern for me. It also gives an excuse for future governments not to proceed with these changes. We must also consider the cost for administering such a measure. There is no hierarchy of citizenship in Ireland and I do not believe there should be one in the electorate for the Seanad.

I cannot see how some of the proposals in the document could be implemented. I have read into it that one would look at people registering online, receiving their ballot paper abroad and sending it in. That aspect could be fraught with all types of dangers. All of us use online banking and do various things online but we do not vote online. I know voting online has not been proposed but I disagree with registering to vote abroad when it is very difficult to carry out checks. The people who manage the electoral registers in this country can call down to a house and check that Mr. Joe O'Toole, for example, lives at a certain address in north Dublin or that Dr. Maurice Manning lives at a certain address in south Dublin. Such checks cannot be done on people who live abroad.

I welcome the proposal to extend the franchise to the general public for 30 seats. I also believe we need to keep the vocational aspect of the Seanad. For all the criticism of the Seanad, I have seen at first hand here that, in the main, one has people who are able to draw from their own experience of the vocational system. It would be a problem if that aspect is lost and the Seanad becomes a mini Dáil.

I would like to thank both witnesses and the working group for the report. It is a serious document. I agree with the vast bulk of the report but there are some things that I have concerns about which I have outlined. I would like answers in terms of the implementation, timeframes and commitments from other parties. The Government has given a commitment but I worry that it was given in advance of a general election so the Government can say it has published a reform document on the Seanad. It seems likes a box ticking exercise but I would hate for that to be the case. I thank the delegation for their attendance here today.