Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I also welcome Dr. Maurice Manning and Mr. Joe O'Toole to the House. It is very important for us to have this debate. There is much in this report with which I agree but I have concerns about some areas. I feel deeply that serious reform of the Seanad can only take place if it also incorporates constitutional reform. It is a pity that when the Taoiseach brought the proposal to abolish the Seanad before the people 18 months ago, which was rejected by the people, it was just a question of "Yes" or "No". The Seanad is so entwined with the Constitution that it will be very difficult to achieve meaningful reform but I appreciate the work the working group has done and its sincerity.

I have concerns about whether anybody has costed the new system. The taxpayer should know at the outset what this reform will mean to them. The cost of a Seanad election is €11,500, if one allows for registration, post and so on. I have deep concerns that the electronic system of voting suggested contravenes Article 18.5 of the Constitution which states that an election must be by means of a single transferable vote by secret postal ballot. I still think that if this was constitutionally challenged, the voting papers would have to be sent out by and returned by registered post. I am not a mathematician but I have done a costing and reckon that if this was to be the case, one would be looking at somewhere between €15 million and €20 million to run a Seanad election. I am doing this on the basis that there are roughly 500,000 people with Irish passports living all over the world who would be entitled to vote. There is also a substantial constituency of voters in Northern Ireland. The cost of the reforms as they stand should be looked at seriously.

My other question concerns validation. The register must be validated. A person must go before the county secretary or local superintendent. How can the hurdle of validation, which I also believe is incorporated in the Constitution, be overcome with the current proposals?

Has anybody checked how many of our citizens abroad have an up-to-date current passport? If they do not have one now, they may decide to update their passports if there is a Seanad election in four years' time. Where does the line stop? I have a nephew in the US who was born there but has an Irish passport. His four children have Irish passports. Does one draw a line and say they must be born in Ireland as well as have an Irish passport?

In respect of serious reform in this House, did the working group look at the removal of the whip system in the Seanad? It would be an innovation. People say it should not be there. There are issues of conscience. If we are looking at real reform, why not at least look at the removal of the whip system in Seanad Éireann so that we have a body independent of Government?

I would take offence at the fact that perhaps the current Seanad and the panel system has not operated well. Even though I am a qualified solicitor, I was born and brought up on a farm and lived there until my mid-20s. It is important that Senators from the various panels can call for debates, for example, on farming. I am on the agriculture panel. Another area that is neglected is the fishing industry. Most Members do a lot of work for the panels they represent.

Reducing the number to be elected by local authority members diminishes the powers of our councillors. This House must never forget that councillors are community leaders. They are elected by their communities. We lost town councils. Further disenfranchising our councillors in respect of the very important duty of voting for the Seanad is disgraceful.I investigated that issue. A minimum of 23 Senators should be elected by county councillors and the Taoiseach's nominees should be reduced from 11 to seven Senators. The method of appointing Taoiseach's nominees was designed by Eamon de Valera in 1937 purely as a political tactic to ensure a Government majority in the House. If the Seanad had a different flavour and perhaps enjoyed more respect, we might not always be following what happens in the other House. The Members of this House are, by and large, sensible people. The Independent Senators oppose or support the Government as they consider appropriate.

The most successful economy in Europe, Germany, has an Upper House that is elected in a similar manner to the system used for the Seanad. Germany is not about to change its method of election. We can compare ourselves to New Zealand or other countries, but we must be careful in changing the current system. The people need to know about the costs involved and meaningful reform without constitutional change will be difficult to achieve. Does the working group envisage a separate election for the Seanad which would be held in tandem with Dáil elections? If that is the case, it would be difficult to manage on a practical level. An election would have to be held on the same day and prospective candidates would have to declare for either the Dáil or the Seanad. Separate elections would give rise to additional costs. While I welcome this debate, I have reservations about the proposed reforms from a constitutional perspective. However, I have always advocated facing up to Seanad reform as a reality.