Rónán Mullen (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for his response. However, I have to say I am not happy with it. I say that as somebody who has great respect for the Minister as a legislator and particular respect for his credentials in this area. Quite frankly, as I listened to his response to me, I could not help concluding he is quite aware that I am on to something here. I suggest he is quite sympathetic to what I am proposing.This is yet another example of a culture that has crept into Irish parliamentary life, although perhaps it was always there. It is that the Government does not accept Opposition amendments unless it is absolutely shamed into doing so, and unless it is blindingly obvious that some massive injustice will occur unless they do. That is not sufficiently respectful of the role of the Oireachtas. The Minister's answer amounts to saying that we may be onto something and that there may be some mischief here in the form of a problem for potential whistleblowers if no exception is created, as I have proposed. He is suggesting, however, that if we create this exception, some other mishap or problem will occur, but he gave no definition of what type of mischief could result from creating not a lacuna but a legitimate exception, to allow Members of the Oireachtas to do their work, as the Minister has done in this very area, by listening to people who have evidence of wrongdoing and letting that inform their work as legislators.

In recent days we have had a particularly intense discussion about the role of advice from the Attorney General, legal advice to Government, the occasional lack of transparency around the procurement of such advice, and questions as to whether such advice turns out to be well-founded in the fullness of time. Since I raised this issue last week, I have not heard from the Minister or his officials. It is not my ego that is hurt, but I remind the Minister that I brought forward a specific instance of a situation which I felt necessitated the amendment I have proposed. Senator Denis O'Donovan, who is in the Chair today, remembers the issue well because he was also involved in that debate on the Defence Bill with the former Minister, Deputy Shatter. We came to know about wrongdoing in the proposed appointment of particular persons, or certainly procedural failings leading to a likely lack of qualification on the part of a person who was intended to be appointed by the Defence Forces. We did not, and would not, disclose the source of that information. Indeed, I was contacted by the military police on that very matter. If an organisation or representative body had approached us, however, seeking to encourage us to oppose that legislation and giving as a reason for such opposition certain wrongdoings or procedural irregularities that had gone on before, there would be a lack of protection for them. In other words, if this Bill were to apply in those circumstances, they would be in a situation in which such an approach to myself or Senator O'Donovan would have to be recorded somewhere as lobbying. That very fact would have a chilling effect on them. The whole point of approaching a Member of the Oireachtas is to give them information. Members of the Oireachtas have privilege of adverting to that information in whatever way protects their source but allows them to address a mischief.

Let us imagine there were no protection such as I am proposing. If an organisation or representative body wanted to report some wrongdoing in the course of lobbying us on legislation and seeking to influence our position on legislation - and, in order to persuade us of that, drawing our attention to some wrongdoing that lay behind the need or push for such legislation - they might well suffer a chilling effect. In other words, they may well be unlikely to approach us because if it were known that they had approached us in particular circumstances it might expose them, or persons working for them, as being in breach of official secrets legislation. It is as serious as that.

I have given the Minister a real-life example, not just today but also last week. The Minister's officials should examine the record of what was said in the Seanad during that debate on the Defence Bill. In that way, they will see whether I produced an example to illustrate the need for the exception I have proposed in my amendment. With sincere respect to the Minister and his credentials, I ask him to address that point. I do not believe he has addressed it or given any credible example of any possible mischief that could flow from including the exception I am proposing. In fact, if there is a balance of convenience or a benefit of the doubt to be given, it should be given to Members of the Oireachtas who want to be able to receive information about alleged wrongdoings. Such information should be received in confidence, if necessary, in order to allow them to do the job. The judgment of Members of the Oireachtas should be trusted as to whether the disclosure of wrongdoing is in fact bona fide. That is the side towards which the Minister should be leaning in these circumstances.