Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour) | Oireachtas source

It is a culture that is not exercised by me, as even a cursory examination of my record will show. I come in here with an open mind. I have had good ideas in Opposition that were seldom accepted. In the 1990s, I spent some time as my party's spokesperson on justice and produced very good legislation on a Garda ombudsman and a Garda authority, all of which was voted down. I knew go dtiocfadh ár lá, however, and that they would come into being some day. Therefore, I always come into this House or the other House with an absolute respect for ideas coming from the Opposition, and honestly with an open mind. I reject the notion that there is a culture, that I am the creature of the Civil Service, or captured by my Department. That has never been my style.

I have always believed in the role and right of the Oireachtas to legislate, as well as the right of the Opposition to be heard and to have good ideas implemented. That is why I responded as I did on Committee Stage, saying that there was something I needed to think about here. I do not think the Senator was listening to me earlier. It was not simply a vague notion that his amendment could do a mischief. His amendment would do a mischief, and I will explain why. I did explain it already, but will refer to what I said earlier. The structure of the Bill is that the person who needs to make the registration is the lobbyist - the person doing the lobbying. Therefore, it is not a matter for Members of the Oireachtas to make any judgment call at all about whether a matter is registerable. If information is given to the Senator, whether or not he thinks it has merit or there is wrongdoing, it is neither here nor there as regards it being registerable. That is a matter that falls on the legal obligation of the lobbyist.

My fear is not about the goodwill of Members of the Oireachtas, but is about putting a lacuna in the Bill that undermines the whole registration process and essence of this Bill. This could occur if one couches the information given in lobbying by saying it will resolve mischief or that there is some wrongdoing attached to it. With a clear conscience, that absolves the lobbyist from registering and guts the whole purpose that this Bill set out to achieve. That purpose is to ensure that when people approach decision-makers - Members of the Oireachtas or members of the Government - that approach, if it is captured in the way set out in section 5, is required to be registered. My formal advice from the Parliamentary Counsel is that that is the effect of the Senator's amendment. I have a difficulty in accepting it because I think that is a greater mischief than the mischief he seeks to resolve.

With an open mind, however, I said there is a potential that the Senator might have some issue. Let us see how it works and cure it in a way that does not cause greater harm. That is the only thing I have asked for.

The Senator cited a specific case. Normally on Committee Stage we listen to all Senators, although we do not do one-to-one dialogue. It is not normal to do so between sections with individual Members of the House. The debate is here for all Members, because other Members have an interest in the Senator's amendment as well.Senator Mullen will forgive me if we did not have one-to-one dialogue with him in the past seven days as we researched these matters and as I sought further advices on them. Senator Mullen gave me a particular instance. I took the view at the time that the particular instance would not be captured by this lobbying legislation. It relates to the giving of information to a person. Let us suppose another person demanded the specifics of that information. That scenario is clearly exempted under section 5(5)(d) because the other person is seeking information about something that is factual. If one person gives another factual information about wrongdoing, it is exempt in any event. My advices are that such a scenario would not be captured by this legislation. If, in the fullness of time, some issue does arise that creates a difficulty, I am pleased to say that I will deal with it with an open mind when it is manifest.