Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator van Turnhout. We have had extensive engagement in the House and outside it on this. I certainly believe the main aim of the amendments is to deal with schools' admission policies, although they are not solely aimed at this.In that regard, the schools do not form part of the Department of Social Protection's remit but I have engaged with the Minister for Education and Skills. We are all concerned about the lived experience of transgender children in schools. I will confirm three relevant points on which we have worked over a period to improve the lived experience of transgender children in the school system.

Before I do, it was an interesting point on the birth certificate. We have inherited a school system that probably none off us is happy with. I note, through my own work in my constituency, that the birth certificate has become less relevant and the baptismal certificate is what is sought, which is causing even further complications and anxieties among parents. It is becoming difficult. While we have inherited a system 92% of which involves the separation of boys' and girls' schools, and the majority of which are religious schools, it has become excessively difficult for parents to deal with. It is an issue that will become ever more apparent in the coming years.

On the lived experience of transgender children in schools, I will confirm three points of relevance. First, the Government has introduced compulsory anti-bullying procedures for all schools which for the first time require them to have a policy to tackle transphobic bullying. The Minister for Education and Skills continues to explore how the impact of these procedures will be monitored and is happy to discuss that further. Second, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, recently met the parents of transgender children and has agreed to meet the Transgender Equality Network Ireland, TENI, over the next couple of weeks to discuss the lived experience of such children in schools and what policy options may be open. Third, following on from the meeting with TENI, the Minister is happy to convene a round-table discussion with all the educational partners on this topic. That will allow for the issues faced by transgender children and young people to be discussed in detail with the management bodies, with trade union representatives, students and parents. I trust this information is helpful.

What we all want to achieve is that the lived experience of children at school, complex as it is because of the school system we inherited over decades, is as positive as possible. While Senator van Turnhout may not be fully happy with the response, she will recognise that there has been a body of work undertaken by herself and many Senators here to improve the lived experience of transgender children in the educational system. It is far from perfect. However, the three strands I laid out form a mechanism to work to improve that lived experience. There are many complications involved.

I spoke to Senator van Turnhout earlier about the number of Departments and how the Department of Justice and Equality and other areas all operate within the different sections. When one goes into it further, there are complications, even with the interim gender recognition certificates, in introducing a new certificate, such as when it would be finished, would we maintain two separate registers, would the interim certificate remain valid past the age of 18, how would we ensure the rights of the children would be protected in it and even, as to the relationship which Senator Power raised clearly, how could the Minister possibly make a decision in that regard. There are many elements involved.

I will take guidance from the Chair and from Senator van Turnhout, who worked with Senators Zappone and Ann O'Brien in drafting these amendments. I would be happy if Senator van Turnhout wants to proceed, amendment by amendment and section by section. I have detailed notes and I would be happy to sit down and go through them. There are many complications in creating an interim certificate. If we were to opt for that mechanism, there is much consultation that would have to take place and it would take a substantial amount of time. In total, we would have to work across nine Departments and sections in this regard.

While I recognise the work the Senator has done on that, it could not have been possible in the time allowed to her to examine all of the unintended consequences of an interim certificate, such as how panels would be involved, who would make the decision and who would assist the Minister in making those decisions on the devolved powers. I reiterate what one might call the three-legged stool, namely, the three elements on which we can work with the Department of Education and Skills. I spoke to the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, as recently as this morning and she is happy to be proactive, to get involved quickly and to work out solutions to the many issues that concern everybody. As I outlined, the Minister for Education and Skills has already agreed to meet TENI. We can work out a structure and a better outcome for transgender children through the school process. It will not be easy or simple, but there is the will and determination, both here in this House but also with the Minister for Education and Skills, to resolve many of those issues.

I thank the Senators for the work they have carried out on that element. I certainly will be happy to assist them to work to a satisfactory outcome.