John Whelan (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister and the Bill. I am delighted to see that, broadly speaking, it has cross-party support. It is a good day’s work and is long overdue. It is good to see the Minister getting through the Dáil and being open minded about amendments. It might not be the last piece of the jigsaw but it is a key piece of the reform agenda to ensure openness, transparency and accountability in government.

We are all lobbied all the time. We actively lobby too. I do not think that is what the public has in mind. Although it is hard to define, there is good lobbying and insidious attempts to influence decisions and policy that we might regard as bad lobbying. The public wants its old lobbyists “washed down”. We want them out front and centre where we can see them, what they are up to and for whom. This week we are at the fulcrum of the proposed sale of Aer Lingus. Public bodies, such as RTE, and public companies, agencies, advisory groups and policy bodies have an important bearing on our lives. Communities and individuals are concerned because they often feel they are out-gunned by more powerful and influential elements which they believe have more resources and more access to the body politic or the Government of the day. This legislation, along with the suite of legislation the Minister has introduced on whistleblowers, freedom of information, appointments to State boards, establishment of an independent Garda authority and the charities regulator, are significant developments. I do not think they have received due and sufficient credit and recognition for their importance as part of the infrastructure being put in place by this Government to try to make decision making more accountable and transparent.

I welcome the legislation but there are areas that can be reviewed, tweaked and fine-tuned as we go along and see how it operates. I agree with the Minister’s comment last week that everyone has a vested interest in something or other and he cannot preclude people from making that view known. A conflict of interest arises, however, in respect not just of poachers turned gamekeepers or gamekeepers turned poachers but of individuals and organisations who try to be both at the same time. One cannot serve the public interest and well-being at the same time as having a commercial interest or skin in the game or shares in a company that may have an advantage based on decisions the Minister makes or can influence. That is a form of insider trading because the lobbyist can also have a role in the decision-making process by wearing another hat. That is quite dangerous. It is not in the public interest. It needs to be addressed. It is not sufficiently comforting to hear someone say he or she has a potential conflict of interest and is stepping out of the room for a moment. I do not believe that person has left his or her influence outside the door.

I do not believe in Chinese walls. I do not know how they work and I do not believe they do work. We should attempt to capture this for the first time ever because this country has been deficient in knowing who is talking to who behind closed doors and about what. If the legislation had been in place earlier, we might not have needed a banking inquiry and we might know how certain banking executives and their advisers were on the country's golf courses and racecourses influencing Cabinet Ministers and the Government of the day to take certain courses of action or not take other courses. I commend the Minister on his perseverance in finally getting the legislation over the line and bringing it to the House. It complements and supplements a range of other legislative measures pioneered by the Minister and they will stand the country in good stead for years to come.