Sean Barrett (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for her comments and thoughts on the Bill. I assure her with regard to the pay and pensions provisions, that I was hoping to save money. The aim was to ensure pay and pension disputes would be resolved without recourse to the High Court. I agree with Senator David Norris's suggestion that we invoke the statutory instruments that place the burden on the trustees of pension funds of not behaving like the ones to whom I referred. Moral hazard means that they will keep on doing it, unless we rebuke them.

When John F. Kennedy addressed the Dáil, he quoted Lord Edward FitzGerald to the effect that Leinster House did not inspire the brightest ideas, but I believe it does. I learn something new every time I come into this Chamber. I also learned during all of the time I was in TCD and before that in school. That is the spirit in which the legislation is being brought before the House. We need to protect the good aspects of universities.

On the issue of funding, there is a €3,000 fee, at TCD, for example, which Senator Ivana Bacik prefers to call a student charge. The figure is over $40,000 in overseas universities with the same ranking. Only being able to take €3,000 from a student and receiving €8,000 from the Department and being able to compete in the open market against universities with resources which are four times greater is a remarkable achievement. How is this done? It is done in the lecture hall, on which there is too little emphasis. I am tired of hearing people talk about restructuring universities. The key is the lecture hall in which academics have 50 minutes to make an impression on up to 400 attendees. Are academic articles being published internationally? What does the external examiner think when he or she rates Irish degrees as compared to others? These are the real tests, not the micro-management issues to which Senator Feargal Quinn referred.

The provision for a commission on public service appointments was an attempt to avoid going to court, which is hugely expensive, and not to involve the Minister in unnecessary expenditure. Innovation designated activity can happen in amazing circumstances. One of my undergraduate students who was taking a course on aviation economics was Mr. Michael O'Leary who believed what we had told him and is now operating the biggest airline in Europe. The traditional model of aviation, with one national airline per country and all airlines agreeing fares and colluding with each other, was swept aside by one person. Innovation is not always just scientific.

Irish society was going astray in 2008. I hope that when governments are thinking about appointing people to the boards, against the will of the universities, that they will not consider appointing accountants, bankers or auditors. That people from outside can run universities far better than those inside is not borne out by the facts. The Minister has said universities need smaller, more modern and competency-based governing bodies. I have been on the boards of universities for three or four terms and they are competency-based. Their members are elected by 64 leading academic departments. There is a view, particularly in administration, that those who run the universities are not up to the job and could do better. That view will be resisted hugely. The more autonomous a university is, the better.

I thank Senator John Crown for his remarks. Decasualisation of staff and better career structures are needed at university level. Several Senators also referred to the need for better rights for women academics. I agree. These ideas are so stimulating and interesting that they merit further discussion on another date. I thank the Minister for her attendance and I am sure the discussion has only started.