Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister and his officials to the House. The fact that we have an opportunity to discuss this issue is because of the Irish people who voted to retain the Upper House. Without their support, this issue would not be debated here today. It is an important point and the 60 Members of the House have a unique opportunity to put forward ideas to the Minister. He is very attentive and willing to listen to ideas.

The Bill refers to a plebiscite. Senator Barrett has tabled a very good amendment, which we will support. Senator Craughwell's amendment was extremely good, and I respectfully suggest that on Report Stage he changes the term "referendum" to "plebiscite" with the same wording. The wording is very precise.

The idea of a plebiscite or referendum is academic, to some extent. In reality, the imposition of charges is the straw that has broken the camel's back. Many people spoke to me about the household charge, which has been implemented and paid. Why could the Government not have incorporated water into it to fund water provision and services? It would have been much more acceptable. Instead, there is a charge on a charge, which is causing problems.

Yesterday, I heard a clip in which the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, committed the Labour Party to opposing the imposition of water charges. That is a real betrayal of the electorate. It is misleading the people. The former Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, has said that is what people say during elections. I remember commitments given in manifestos in 1977 which, for better or for worse, were implemented. It was the first time I was elected. The other parties also went down the same road at the time, but people do not realise that. I remember advertisements were taken out in certain newspapers by Fine Gael and others. Let us not discuss history; we are where we are at this point in time.

If there is a widespread decision by people not to pay under any circumstances, will that negate all the efforts being made in this regard? The system will be unworkable unless it has the will and support of the Irish people to pay for water. There were large protests in every town and city in the country. The message should be clearly heard. We have received a large number of e-mails in the past few days. Will people decide not to pay and let everyone else carry the can?

It is the first time I have not yet filled out any form, and will not until I get clarification on the situation. I do not know whether the situation regarding those with a second house has been clarified, in terms of whether they are legally liable to pay the charges, irrespective of the tenancy arrangements. Paying back retentions is not acceptable.

Families with children in college, in particular those from towns like Roscommon which have no universities, have to pay for apartments and water charges, on top of charges at home. There is no provision in the Bill for a cap on the amount any family would have to pay, whether children are living at home or in rented accommodation.

I refer to the Minister's dismissal of a referendum and unintended consequences. It would be fair that the advice of the Attorney General is put on the record of the House.

Any explanation should set out exactly why the proposal for a referendum was turned down.

I understand the complications. Water is a complicated issue. Several contracts have already been given out to private organisations such as Veolia in Roscommon as well as other companies that are now managing water schemes in some of the cities in a partnership set-up. They have a certain control over water at this point and whether we could nationalise these arrangements now is for the Minister to explain.

Another question is the matter of the ownership of the River Shannon and the waterways. It is proposed to extract water from the River Shannon to provide water for Dublin. Is provided for in the Constitution? Could that be provided for by amendment? Could that be regulated for? I understand the complications of the issue. It is complex, but it is coming to the fore. I know as a former Minister of State that Ministers get excellent advice, and the Minister has tremendous officials with him today. I imagine the Department is altogether aware of the issues. I always found that I relied totally on the civil servants who advised me. I found them to be of the highest quality and they offered the best advice and I respect the advice being given.

It is a complex issue. The Constitution contains a right to private property. I understand that if we have a well, we can extract water and sell it. There is a question arising if we have a referendum and decide that we all own that water and that individuals cannot own it. I understand these things. It is not as simple or straightforward as having a referendum and then deciding everything will be solved. One unintended consequence is the position of an organisation providing water, for example, Ballygowan Water in Limerick, which has some lovely wells.