Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

To return to the issue of the overpayments, as the Senator is aware, because he has raised this issue on a number of occasions, if a person had an overpayment in the region of €1,500 and the recovery of the overpayment was restricted so that the net social welfare payment being made could not go below the supplementary welfare allowance rate, as is suggested in this particular recommendation by the Senator, this would result in such a debt being repaid over a period of 14 and a half years. In the case of a serious fraudulent debt, the Senator is in effect proposing that money that has been defrauded from social welfare to the serious harm of other social welfare recipients - people such as pensioners who rely on their social welfare income - would, in the case of a debt of €7,500, be repaid over a 72-year period, as it would not be possible to recover, as the Senator well knows, more than €2 a week.

I suggest to the Senator that the principle on which social welfare operates is that people make contributions out of hard-earned income through taxes and PRSI and they rely on the Department of Social Protection to ensure, as far as is possible, that this goes to the people for whom it is intended in the correct amount. Almost everyone who uses social protection claims only the correct amount, nothing more, nothing less. Almost all of the people we deal with are, thankfully, extremely honest. The Senator is suggesting that instead of recovering very significant losses, as we do now, at the rate of 15% of the individual's principal payment, and nothing else, we should revert to a situation of recovering fraudulent payments such as the €7,500 I have suggested over a 72-year period. If the other people living on the same road with someone who had been doing this discovered it, they would rightly feel that the person from whom the overpayment was being recovered was perhaps putting up two fingers to the people living beside them, people who work to pay their taxes and their PRSI or, in the case of people getting a social welfare payment, people who deal with 100% honesty with the Department. As the Senator is aware, almost everyone who receives social welfare deals with 100% honesty with the Department. I do not propose to accept the Senator's recommendation. We have had this discussion before. It is appropriate to make appropriate collections.

On the Irish Water issue, the Government announced a more modest and affordable system for water charges. As part of that package, the Department of Social Protection will be administering on behalf of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government the new water conservation grant of €100. Arising from that revised charging structure, which is simpler and more affordable, Irish Water no longer requires PPS numbers. I see the Senator nodding his head, so I think that is agreed.