Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Seanad for the opportunity to discuss this subject. Senator Barrett outlined the main reason we should be here. We need to tease this out and discuss it a lot more. It is important and that is why I am delighted everybody involved in decision-making, be it in the Seanad, the committee or Dáil, can tease out the whole agenda pertaining to Horizon 2020. I have been asked by a few Senators to come back on this. I would have no problem coming back every week on it because it is of the utmost importance. It concerns the one area we are actually getting right as a country. I am not referring solely to activity of the current Government over the past three years as successive Governments over the past ten years have got this right. I will be happy to consider how we are progressing in three or four months but it is important that those who want to contribute familiarise themselves with the exact details and get stuck in. Then we can have a proper discussion on it.

I chaired the committee responsible for the enterprise, jobs and innovation agenda. I have said on many occasions since that we did not spend enough time on the innovation agenda. It is difficult to be fully informed about it. It is the one area we will have to become informed about, however. I, as Minister of State responsible for the agenda, am prepared to work, through the committee I chaired or a separate one, with those who are interested in this area. It is important that we know what we are spending our money on and why it is worth spending.

Senator Barrett is correct that it is important that we evaluate this. I am very impressed with the evaluation I have seen, and with the peer-to-peer evaluation. I refer to the international perception of the Irish success and to Irish investment and what is emerging from that. I will not revert to what happened in the past; I can only speak about what is happening now. I would be very happy to sign off on the system to evaluate the benefits accruing from our taxpayers' money. I am in this job for only three or four months but have spent a lot of time meeting the relevant players, particularly those in the business environment, who are best positioned to judge value for money and what they believe they are getting out of the system. They say many companies are choosing to locate in this country because they realise the benefits of and value that accrues from our research, development and innovation agenda. They say that is one of the main reasons they are locating here. While they may be motivated by the tax regime, etc., they believe the real agenda is innovation. The companies recognise the effort successive Irish Governments have made on the research agenda. Coming here involves a big decision.

An important point, to be discussed by the committee, concerns whether we are getting value for money from the research and development grants and tax incentives. The best way to judge is to examine the companies increasing the numbers they employ. These are the companies that are investing in research and development, and they are working with all our research centres and institutes on the research agenda. These are the companies that are expanding, innovating and increasing their employment. To me, that is proof enough of the value of grants and tax incentives.

On the overall research agenda, are we getting value for money through universities and institutes of technology? There will always be a question about this. However, where we have focused our money in the research centres and targeted key areas, we have been getting value for money, and this will increase. Our success with FP7 and Horizon 2020 has proven that. The spin-off benefits and the commercialisation of which Senator Barrett spoke prove it also.

The targets are now being set. Key performance indicators are being set in terms of what we want to achieve every year regarding the training of new researchers, spin-off effects and disclosures. I attended an event in Trinity College, Dublin, a few weeks ago because the college reached its 500th disclosure. That is proof that those concerned are getting the commercialisation agenda into their heads. This is the one significant benefit that will help in the evaluation of our expenditure here and prove it is worth spending money here.

I assure the House that it is difficult arguing with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to get money in this area. One does not get it for fun. Unless one can prove that it will result in value and have an impact, one will not get the resources. There has been an increased allocation from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, through my Department, for capital expenditure on research and development in the various centres. That proves we have won the argument in this regard. I would be happy at any stage to engage with concerned individuals and go through the figures. I encourage Senators to talk to Mr. Mark Ferguson, chairman of Science Foundation Ireland, which is driving the impact agenda. The impact must result in value for money. On the question of whether we are getting a return on our expenditure in this area, I believe we are. I ask Senators to engage with Mr. Ferguson on this and buy into the process.

If Members are not happy then let us change the strategy but I think they will be when they see the results because there is proof there and there is a system so they can track the money being spent. It may not have been there in the past - I will not speak for the past - but it is there now. It is important because this country has invested heavily in this agenda over the last ten years. It will serve us well, but we must keep it going and if there is any doubt in people's mind, I would urge them to get fully informed and check it out. I will make available any information they want on this issue and I suggest that they take time out to go and visit some of the research centres. This is not capital spend or building new buildings. It is bringing together all the best brains of all our institutions, including our institutes of technology, in the research centres with SMEs and companies to drive the spend and put money together. I am sorry if I gave the impression that it did not include institutes of technology. It includes all our higher education institutions - universities and institutes of technology.

The only way to prove one is spending taxpayers' money wisely is to see industry adding money to it. Most of these research centres have at least 30% matched funding from industry. That would not happen if industry did not believe in it. That is encouraging, but it is an area that we must all get more involved with and examine more, because it is not something that Deputies and Senators have enough time for. We must make time for it because it is a major agenda for this country and our recovery has been built on it.

A couple of issues were raised. If I miss any points because I run out of time I will provide answers in writing, but Senators should feel free to shout at me if I miss something as I am going along.

Senator Ó Domhnaill raised the issue of our participation being contingent on universities and SMEs and their funding. He is right, but we are very conscious of the need to maintain that level and we have increased the spend in this area to make sure of this. There is no point in us setting a target of Horizon 2020 and then pulling the rug from under it, so we are not doing that. We are putting the extra money in where it is needed. The high-level working group is not a talking shop. Its purpose is to ensure that we are on track every month with what we are doing here. If we see a gap, for example, that we cannot expect Trinity or UCD to be successful in a project without extra resources or money at the right place and time, we will ensure that we are providing enough resources to encourage a multinational or an SME to work with institutes of technology. Each area has been asked to coordinate plans. There is one coordinating plan for all institutes of technology. The universities generally have their own as well, but everyone has been asked to have their little plan in place so that we can monitor the situation and check on a regular basis that we are on track to achieve success. The institutes of education were the reason we won over half the money the last time and we need them to do the same again this time. They know that. They know their role in this and they know they must step up and do that. They are willing to do that and they all have plans in place for it, so we will monitor that too.

The Senator also referred to the fact that 75% of ERC money goes to larger countries. That is correct. Ireland has improved its position in relation to the drawdown of ERC money over the last couple of years and that is why the president of the European Research Council was here yesterday, complimenting Ireland's improvement in this area. He was brought here to engage with all our research communities to see how we can improve on that, because it is an area we want to improve on. I had a good chat with him yesterday and addressed the conference myself as well, but there is room for improvement in that respect. We have had over €51 million in funding from the ERC through 40 different research applications, so we must build on that and improve on it because it is not meant to be set aside for larger countries. We are trying to target each part of the research budget to see how we can win bigger. One must break it down and look at each one individually and we are doing that as well, so we are making progress.

Senator Naughton spoke about frontier research. This is also important. It goes back to the issue Senator Barrett mentioned about the money getting lost in the system. Over the past three or four years, we have driven a prioritisation agenda. The State, through taxpayers' money, is only funding major research in key areas. The scattergun approach does not work for us anymore. We cannot afford to spend money chasing every dream out there and supporting all blue skies research. We would like to but we cannot, so we are trying to target the money through more focused research for priority areas, namely, applied research. It is still important that we have some blue skies research and some basic research to keep the overall pot going and keep researchers developing that. That is probably best achieved through the frontier research, which allows for the combination of basic and applied research. In terms of value for money, as an economist will always look for, as I would coming from an accountancy background, applied research is where one will see the real impact, but we must have basic research to ensure we can have applied research in the future. I agree with having great participation in the ERC.

It is important to maintain support for SMEs. We want to have SME participation and we have had some good results in that area. A few Senators, including Senator Quinn, have asked how this happens and who drives that agenda. That is mainly done through Enterprise Ireland, the body that we have all decided is the best body to work with our SMEs and businesses for future growth and exports. Through Imelda Lambkin and Gerry, whose second name I forget, it is doing great work as an agency to drive this agenda and is working with SMEs as well to ensure they are in a position to work as part of research teams who can make the drawdown here. There are different opportunities for SMEs and larger companies to get into this system and to be part of the ecosystem as well. There are also reviews on a regular basis, to ensure we are attracting SMEs in a strong enough way.

How does one picture the research ecosystem? How does one see where one can fit in as a small company or a start-up? We are developing a directory on this, which will be published in December, to enable people to tap into the system and see where is the best place to go with an idea or a concept. We are trying to say that one must engage with the educational and research community through the research centres, through the universities and institutes of technology. That is the best way of doing this and one develops that collaboration - businesses and institutes of education draw down money together, putting the brains together with the innovator or the driver of an initiative through a business. That works quite well and that is how to develop that.

There are dedicated contact points for SMEs and regular information events for SMEs, North and South. The directory will help show that. On 2 December there will be a major showcase in the National Convention Centre which will set out the research ecosystems. I encourage people, including Senators, to come to that to engage and meet with all those involved in the research community to see what they are doing. It will be laid out in a good structure so one will be able to see the best area for a person with a particular background to engage. It will be a good place to display what is going on, because I accept that even for me coming in here, it is difficult to see everything. This is how one will see it - a showcase, with a directory following on from that as well. People will have a chance to see it and to find out how to get more involved. There are also grants to support travel for SMEs to get involved in this. Chasing Horizon 2020 money and chasing various funding requires one to go out there and look for it.

Senator Quinn mentioned foreign languages. One must go and win it and sell it and actually convince people, so international collaborations are necessary, but so are language competencies to enable one to argue a case and compete. There is a serious drive, cross-Border and throughout Europe, to work together. Most of our universities and institutes of technology are working on teams that include North-South collaboration, and collaboration with Scotland, the UK and further afield. I attended an event in Trinity in August and they were involved with Norway, Sweden, Spain, the UK, Denmark and Ireland in a drawdown. The research agenda is breaking down borders and bringing everyone together, which is what should happen at a European level if we are to get results for Europe, not just for Ireland. That is the whole idea behind Horizon 2020.

There was talk about having smaller versus larger grants. One needs both. To be able to achieve success in important areas, of which energy would be one, one must have large-scale grant opportunities and drawdown, but the system is designed in such a way that to achieve a big win or a large-scale grant one must have major participation from a number of players. It is not a case of one player stepping in and winning a big pot of money. It is only a collaboration. One does not get a big win unless one has a big number of people coming together across business and the academic community, working together to get that big win. That is what we are trying to do to drive scale. It is bringing a number of people together and it will also nearly always involve a number of countries to get that big win. Then the question is how to divvy up the money. It is apportioned in an agreed manner, so that one will know what each country won, but it will be a collaboration as well.

On the simplification of red tape, we all agree that there is too much red tape in our own system and certainly in the European system as well. The new Commission's agenda is to stop making new laws in Europe, but rather to start simplifying existing laws and cutting red tape. This was also said to us last January when we were there as a committee - and Members here attended with me - and we had three or four days of meetings with the various players in Europe. I hope that continues. As Deputies and Senators, we will be part of that, and we must drive that agenda as well. In the area of Horizon 2020, they have cut the red tape. They have cut the timescale and they have cut other areas as well, to make it easier to draw down money and to coordinate an application, so that if one goes in and fails on the first attempt, one may come back on the next attempt, meaning that there is much more encouragement to get involved in the system. It is probably still too cumbersome. From talking to multinational companies to get them involved, it seems it is too long for their timescale, because a businessperson makes a decision much quicker. They decide today what is going to happen and then move on the next day, but when one is applying for funding, that is taxpayers' money, co-ordinated at European level, and one will not be able to get the answer in a month. It does not work that way.

It will probably take about a year to put an application together and then win and draw down the funding and so on, but it is a lot quicker than it was before. It is in case of building on that as well. We have a lot of structures in place to facilitate that.

Senator Moran raised the issue of the proposed data protection legislation. We will need a balanced approach on that to protect privacy, which is also part of the agenda. We are ensuring our MEPs raise that constantly at European level in order to get the message across.

There was a reference to developing networks and a suggestion that we do not need networks as we are beside each other. It should be borne in mind that a lot of the funding and the research tenders aim to develop new networks to be able to cater for the demands of the future. In the Tyndall National Institute research centre they are working on the whole concept of the "internet of things". They have proven to me that we are only at about 10% capacity today compared to what is going to be going through the networks in years to come. We are not even at the races. We have to be constantly thinking of news ways to be able to avail of that and to be part of it. New networks get the information to join thinking together and bring IT equipment together. It is a big area, a whole big data agenda. Ireland can be major player in it but we need to get in there and be well informed about what is going on. It is not as simple as just developing a new network to be able to pass information to each other. We will have be able to carry the information that is going to come down the line in the future. We are only starting in this area. What I see going on is surprising me every day. The companies that are involved in innovation research, the projects they are developing and what they are doing with the future, is very interesting and we can get involved with it. Horizon 2020 is part of that agenda as well.

Senator Reilly raised the issue of cybersecurity. It falls slightly outside the remit of Horizon 2020 but there is some spin-off from the Horizon 2020 application. It will be part of it, although it is not technically there. We are working on it with a couple of colleagues. The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Dara Murphy, will be part of this agenda with me. It is a very important issue. Cybersecurity and cyberbullying go back to the area of education. We have consultations with students on a regular basis where we ask them what issues are affecting and bothering them. Usually when I attend a class or an event with students the first issue they bring up is cyberbullying. They all put their hands up. Nobody really has the answer to that. I would advocate stretching the agenda to fit these issues. It is certainly something we have to address at European level as it is of major concern to young people. Some of the Senators are more involved in education than I am and they will know this. It is a new area for me to get involved in but all of us have a duty to do a bit of work on it. The question of what is going to happen in this area is the biggest fear I would have as a new parent. We have to protect ourselves and our children.

Senator Craughwell raised the issue of funding for institutes of technology. They are absolutely involved in this as well. It is probably fair to say that the universities have built up a greater capacity for research and development over the years but the institutes of technology are right in there because they are at the heart of business. They are at the front line within industry on a daily basis. They are very much part of what we are trying to do here. They have a co-ordinating unit among them to try to drive this agenda, and they have had a major role in drawing down the funding. I will be working very closely with them as they are essential to what we are trying to do, which is to bring all the players together.

The Senator also expressed a concern as to whether the funding had been cut. He would have to look at the framework over the six or seven years. When a new framework is started, there will not be a flood of applications in the first year. It generally happens in years two, three and four. In the overall budget and timeframe there is an increase of about 30% match for match, even allowing for the new area that we have taken in. This is a major increase in funding and it was hard fought for. The Department of Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation was a major player in that because it was sorted out during the Irish Presidency. There was a lot of work involved and it was not easy to get the money allocated. A lot of governments in Europe said we were under too much pressure in other areas and that we needed money spent elsewhere. It is a hard-won increase and it will be spent very well, with the greatest of scrutiny, because we do not get money out of Europe that easily.

This is one agenda we have to scrutinise and it will stand up to scrutiny. It is about impact, making sure we are getting value for our money and getting results. Impact is the word. If impact cannot be proven in the science agenda these days, it is very hard to get money. This goes back to the commercialisation agenda. Are we getting the results out of that? Are we going to get products and processes and new initiatives as well as jobs and solutions? I think we are, but we need to make it happen faster.

At a national level we now have a knowledge transfer office. Its job is to make it easier to turn the research into useful data and material that will be commercialised. If a company wants to tap in to research, it can find a way. In the past it was complicated; companies had to deal with each university, institute of technology or college differently. The job of the transfer offices at local and national level is to make it easier to engage with that information and with the research community in order to extract the information and get it commercialised into a solution, a job, a process or an initiative. Everyone now knows that in order to avail of taxpayers' money it is necessary to get into the agenda of commercialisation. It is a priority agenda. Not everyone likes it but we have to get value for money and with the competitive budgets in recent years we have had no choice but to focus our money in key areas.

Programme evaluation was also mentioned. There are different methods of evaluating it. Research funders are brought together from all over the world across the whole development to monitor and evaluate it. Even when it comes to picking the projects for success at a national level outside of Horizon 2020, for example, when we announced the five new research centres a few weeks ago, they were not picked by Irish people or decision makers in this Government but by outside players looking at all the projects and picking the ones that offered the best value for money, that could get results and have an impact. We are trying to put Ireland on the world map for certain areas, for example, the health agenda and software. I will pass the information on all these key areas to the Senator if he would like it. They are the areas in which we can make an impact on the world stage and drive and build on our reputation to win new funding, business and jobs.

I am sympathetic to the Senators' comments on red tape and impact. That is all there and we will be achieving that. I would ask everyone to get involved with this area because we have to be at the heart of innovation. I have no doubt that it has been driving our recovery so far. Companies are locating here and we have the health innovation centre as well. The large multinationals are beginning to do more research and development here because they recognise the talent that we have. Through our spend on these different research centres, colleges, universities and so on, we are growing the number of people in the research community. The target is for about 700 or 800 researchers to be turned out every year. If we do not keep producing these people we cannot keep on having a role in this agenda. That has been quite well channelled by various players in the sector as well.

I am happy to come back to this House on a regular basis to work with the Senators, because it is an area of utmost importance. Europe recognises that and so do we, although there are competing demands. I attended my first European Council meeting recently, and the agenda was to discuss whether governments can afford to spend money on research and development. Some countries want out of that. I think they are mad but they are under competing demands. We can see the benefits of it here so we can say that it is important to keep it going although reaching our target of 2.5% of GDP is not going to be easy. People who are making decisions need to be convinced that it is right to spend taxpayers' money on this. When I can see industry's money matching up with taxpayers' money I know we are on the right track.