David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I understand that. It is a genuine confusion. I understand the Minister of State did not accepted any of the 40 or so amendments that were tabled on Committee Stage and does not propose to accept any today. That seems to be largely because this is a Dáil Bill and it would have to go back to the Dáil. I said this to a Minister last week and he accepted this was the case. It is about time the Government recognised the constitutional provisions for this House. This House is supposed to reform, advise and strengthen legislation by amendment. To refuse to accept any amendments whatsoever out of 40 or 50 amendments is absurd. It makes a mockery of this House. I know the Government wanted to get rid of this House, but they did not succeed, and it is about time that Ministers started thinking and accepting amendments from this House.

We discussed the Freedom of Information Bill the other day. I have reservations about that. It is far too broad and sweeping. The Minister was pushing it, although secretly he would agree. The legislation before us is a situation where information is being withdrawn from the public on the basis it would affect the efficiency of the committees. I made the point about Cabinet meetings that confidential material marked "private" and exchanged between two Cabinet Ministers is now subject to Freedom of Information as a result of the new Bill. That is absurd and will certainly inhibit discussion. There is a lack of joined-up thinking and consistency because we are doing the reverse in this legislation in that we are saying that there will be no access to this information. It also involves the appointment of members to boards. This is the kind of thing that is at the centre of public disquiet about the appointment of people. All such procedures should be open and fair.

Will the Minister of State explain what a class E fine is? How much is a class E fine? I tabled an amendment on the Freedom of Information Bill, where the maximum a civil servant is subject to for deliberately destroying information is a €3,000 fine. That is far too weak. The Minister agreed with me, but because he did not want to take the Bill back down to the Dáil, he did not accept it. This is the kind of parliamentary democracy we are in. It may change a bit now that the numbers have changed in this House. I said we on this side would not force divisions vexatiously or frivolously. However, we sure as hell will do so on points of principle, and we have the numbers now.