David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank my colleague, Senator O'Donovan, for yielding his place in the debate to me. I also welcome the Minister of State to the House. I have travelled in a radically different direction to Senator Quinn. He was cautious and did not welcome the original 1997 Bill. I did, but I now would advise caution to the Government. There is far too much information being floated around all over the place. It is the responsibility of the Government to govern and not to be constantly looking over its shoulders at what the public thinks about this, that or the other. It is complete nonsense.

With regard to journalists, something which has turned me against the Bill is the prurient interest in income and the personal affairs of members of the public. The presidential election was mentioned. My God, I have recollections of that. Disinformation and downright lies were propagated by virtually every single media organisation in this country against me. I will never forget it.

There is misinterpretation, either deliberate or calculated, by journalists when they get hold of these figures. Senator O'Donovan will correct me if I am wrong but I think I am correct in saying that voting records were produced and analysed, and he was criticised. He was in the Chair; he did not vote. What clown did not realise that?

There is also the matter of the Government jet. I thank God every time it is used. The newspapers include the capital cost, petrol and all the rest. If it is sitting on the tarmac it is depreciating and wasting money. They never provide a realistic context. The Government is always too gutless to come out and say it and keeps silent.

There are also expenses. I remember an occasion when somebody who was a student of mine in Trinity College called from one of the tabloids. I did not want to talk to him but was persuaded to do so. He asked about expenses and what I received for this, that and the other, and raised various other matters. I told him about the regime and told him that out of the 60 Senators I was the second lowest in this regard and that the only person who was lower than me was Senator Fergal Quinn. Senator Quinn had just sold what he modestly called his shop for €440 million, so I suppose he did not need the few bob. What appeared in the newspaper was a headline reading "Politicians with their snouts in the trough", a photograph of me and a line saying I received €6,000. All of those things were true individually, but together were calculated to promote a falsehood.

There are vexatious applications and so on. The Minister referred to an overhaul of ethics legislation. What a yawn. One cannot legislate for ethics. The crooks will get away with whatever they are at, regardless of whatever legislation is introduced, and it will be plodding auld fellas like myself on the bank bench who will have to waste time keeping records, getting accountants and all the rest, instead of doing what we are supposed to be doing, which is legislating and not dealing with receipts and all the rest. It is complete rubbish. One cannot legislate for ethics.

There are questions of openness, accountability, transparency and all the ballsology that goes on. Last night on "Tonight with Vincent Brown" a member of the Government acknowledged that Ministers being questioned in the Dáil do not give answers, rather they stonewall, obfuscate and do not provide the information when they have it. I would say people were astonished to hear that. The Minister of State involved, Deputy Tom Hayes, is a very decent fellow, but they are all at it.

There is the question of the Cabinet records. Communication between members of a Government will no longer be exempt from FOI. Of course they should be. How can one possibly have decent government if one cannot have disputes and people taking unpopular positions which perhaps voters might not appreciate? We hear from the Government and spokespersons all the time that they are paralysed and do not keep records of this, that and the other, but instead go into corners and huddle-muddle among themselves about decisions. Exempting communication between members of Government should be done.

I welcome the fact that the Garda Síochána, public financial bodies such as the NTMA, NAMA and the Central Bank and the refugee agencies are being included. That is fair enough if we are going to have this kind of thing.

One of the major topics I took up during the debate on the 1997 legislation was the question of fees because I felt they were being introduced in order to deter people from making applications. I very much welcome what the Government is doing. There is a section in the Bill on fees, which is very good. There is a code of best practice and a review will be carried out by an external group comprising academia, journalists and others.