Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the Senators for their contributions and I extend, through Senator Ó Murchú, my apologies for the short notice his colleague received, which was less than the desired two weeks. I appreciate the fact that the Seanad facilitated Second Stage as I want to try to get the legislation through before the end of the session. There are three aspects to this Bill. The main one has been very carefully drafted and was in gestation for almost ten months because we wanted to facilitate the institution that seeks it, namely, RCSI, and at the same time to protect the use of the word "university" and its application. Senators Bacik, Barrett and others have referred to this.
Third level education has been internationalised at an extraordinary rate, including through the Internet. Last week's Economistmagazine devoted three separate related articles, including an opinion piece, to it. It raised a range of issues. The fact that one can generate a massive open online course, MOOC, does not necessarily mean one will get the audience and a proper accreditation system. Although the technology is new and a bit more sexy, this is distance learning with electronics. We have had correspondence schools since the century before last. Although distance learning is not new, the technology enables us to access it in a much different way. The issue of verification and standards remains to be satisfactorily addressed.
Senator Quinn addressed the pitfalls regarding the multiplicity of accredited campuses in other countries. The legislation does not address this. UCD's new president, Professor Deeks, has experience in both Australia and China and is examining UCD's links with China. There are other links between Irish universities and China because of the size of the country. The impression I got from talking to people who know much more about it than I is that a joint venture between an Irish institution and a comparable Chinese institution would result in a joint course whereby, for example, both Irish and Chinese students would do two years of a four-year course in China and two years in Ireland. The model of foreign students coming to Ireland, getting their education entirely here and then returning to their country of origin is evolving. The rebalancing of the world's economy and wealth is changing the dynamic. We are at a very early stage of this emerging model, and the historical model we are familiar with in places such as UCD, Trinity College Dublin, Oxford and Cambridge is not a static model but will change dramatically over the coming years.
The protection of the title "university" is very important. There are approximately 15,000 universities worldwide, although some would put the figure closer to 13,000, depending on what one includes as a university. Colleges of education are sometimes seen as universities. Our seven universities are in the top 600 of the category which, as Senator Crown said, for a population of 4.5 million is an extraordinary achievement. They are not getting some of the resources. One of the issues that affected their ranking was the pupil-teacher ratio. The fact that we have reduced funding on a 1% basis over the past three years as an overall adjustment, has had a direct impact on the pupil-teacher ratio and, consequently, there has been a drop in ratings in that category.

What has improved the rankings of the same institutions has been the extraordinary success in research in the universities, in terms of their funding through Science Foundation Ireland, and also through the improvement in participation in research and winning of research grants from the European Union and others. We are still very much in the first division in respect of our universities.

In the 1980s Mrs. Thatcher re-labelled every polytechnic in the United Kingdom, or certainly in England and Wales, with the title "university". It had no effect on the Russell Group universities, the premier league, so to speak, but it played havoc with the reputation of middle-ranking universities and their ability to survive. I forecast that some of those universities will be in a powerless state in five, ten or 15 years due to the funding model, the cost of going to college and the loan scheme. Mr. David Willetts, the Minister of State with responsibility for higher education in the UK, all but admitted to Jeremy Clarkson that the €9,000 fee loan scheme introduced by the Tories is unviable, and that the cost will be picked up by the taxpayer because the vast majority of students will never repay their loans. Student loan debt in the US, which is the single highest category of debt after the national debt, is in the trillions and is more than all credit card debt in plastic terms. The funding model of universities worldwide will have to be looked at. That is one of the reasons that later this week I will announce a new review group to examine the sustainability of the financing of our universities.

I thanks Senators Jim D'Arcy, Mary Moran and Ivana Bacik for their kind comments. I thank Senator Sean D. Barrett for his correct observation about the way in which the State Examinations Commission addressed in a very satisfactory manner the problems that arose last year. I telephoned Mr. Richard Langford, chairperson of the State Examinations Commission, to congratulate him and his staff. They did what all good proofreaders do when they get tired of looking at their own script; they got somebody to come in with a fresh pair of eyes and to sit it anew. That worked. SUSI has also worked because we fixed the problem. Again, credit is due to the various people who brought that about.

Senator Barrett raised the question of spare capacity within the universities. Ireland is an island off an island off the west coast of Europe. We are not on a crossroads to anywhere. People who come here come out of choice. We do not have the through traffic in terms of cultural diversity that Munich, Rome or places in the middle of Europe would have. For that reason, until about 25 or 30 years ago, Ireland was a highly homogenous society. We need the internationalisation of talent and smarter and different teaching in our universities, which is already happening. It is clear from the nationality profile in his own university that there is a wide diversity of cultural and academic backgrounds and, as a consequence, experiences. At graduate level, students are bringing about that diversity as well. At undergraduate and graduate level, students bring a different perspective of their experience which enriches the indigenous Irish one. The income from non-EU students is an additional and welcome contribution. I put the benefits in the order I have articulated - the internationalisation of academic staff, the cross-fertilisation of students and finally student income - in terms of what we are trying to do in increasing the number of international students. We have to do that without damaging quality or damaging our reputation. The Australians, for example, have lost much reputational goodwill after being perceived to have exploited Asian students. Asian students in Australia encountered much racism and aggravation. It takes time to develop a reputation and it can be lost very quickly, but trying to redevelop and retain it is not easy.

Senator John Crown raised the whole area of medical schools. I would like to come back and hear his thoughts on that issue. It is not an issue we got into in this Bill. This Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill is literally what it says: it is a Bill designed to address a specific request from the RCSI. It caused quite an amount of concern. We did not want to distort the existing landscape but we were persuaded, and in due course, when its plans are revealed, it will be self-explanatory. We were persuaded by the validity of its request, but at the same time we wanted to keep it as tight as possible. That is the reason it was drafted in the way that Senator Ivana Bacik stated.

Senator Mary Moran raised some questions about teachers being asked to undergo the test themselves. We are not aware of that issue. As the Senator is aware, in the initial changes in teacher education that have been introduced, post-primary teachers will have to complete a two-year course. The way in which that will work will be very different from the previous experience, when teachers got their HDip. Likewise, primary school teachers now complete a four-year course. Some 87,000 teachers are registered for the first time with the Teaching Council. One cannot get paid as a teacher here unless one is registered. The Teaching Council, which was established in 2006, took a long time to get to the point at which it is now. It is dominated by insider professionals, which is countercultural compared to most professional organisations. I think I am correct in saying that the majority on the Medical Council and the Irish Medical Organisation are non-medical people, but in time that may change. A requirement, which is not yet effective, of the Teaching Council for a teacher to renew his or her licence to teach will be that one will have to participate, as all professions do, in some specified form of continuous professional development, CPD. It is for that body to specify the CPD in order that teachers meet the qualifications that the interview process is presumably seeking.

I thank all the speakers who have contributed and also for the kind comments made in respect of me on Second Stage. I commend the Bill to the House.