David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I have spoken so many times, over so many years, on this topic that I do not want to repeat myself. So much that is excellent has been said by my colleagues on all sides of the House that I welcome it and do not want anything I say to be redundant. I very much agree with Senator Bacik that it is important that this Bill be in place for the autumn school term, if at all possible. If we can amend it and make it better, so much the better. We must concern ourselves with what one of my colleagues continuously describes as "the chilling effect" of this, that and the other. I am always on the other side to him but there is a chilling effect because even though these clauses have not been activated, as far as I know, in this jurisdiction to permit discrimination, they are there, latent and dormant, and do create fear particularly in a minority that has been so discriminated against over 2,000 years.

I remember and was in this House when the Eileen Flynn case occurred. My recollection of it is vastly different to Senator Walsh’s. I very much regret that he is not here to listen to my remarks but I am sure that he is somewhere listening to them or somebody will tell him about them and I hope somebody does. It was first suggested that the parents objected. So bloody what. The parents should have been put in their box very firmly, if they made these objections. If, for example, they objected to black students being in the class, said they did not like it, that it was not good for their children, some of it might rub off on them, that would have been an ignorant, stupid and unchristian attitude and they should have been slapped into their place.

I have heard of hearsay evidence and things overheard in pubs and "dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi" but this is the first time I have heard of an RTE television crew being overheard in a pub by third parties who said to a fourth party that they were more ashamed of this than of anything else. This is nonsensical stuff and would be immediately dismissed in a court of law as being hearsay of the most remote and nonsensical kind.

If this woman, Eileen Flynn, was fit to teach in a Christian Brothers school – and one wonders about the standards required when one considers the history of what occurred in these institutions – what made her unfit for the first position? There is an obvious lack of connection there. I am very ashamed of some of my middle class, bourgeois, professional colleagues. I do not refer to those in politics but in the law. I recall saying to friends of mine who are lawyers that this was an absolute outrage and they said "What about it? She is married to a Provo." I do not know whether she was. I do not care. It does not bother me. I do not care if she is married to a gorilla. She has rights inherently of herself. I thought that was a most outrageous attitude.

This is an interesting Bill. Senator Bacik says it does not go quite as far as she would like it to go. I have heard this argument so many times. I heard it 20 years when Mervyn Taylor made the point that it was impossible for the Government to go any further than it did. I have always liked to push and it is easy for me as an Independent to do so. That is part of the role of the Independents and I hope this Government does not manage in its efforts to extinguish Independents in this House which it is trying to do. It is part of our role to push even those of our colleagues who do good work, set the bar higher and say we must go as far as possible because eventually we have to reach a completely satisfactory situation.

Senator Power has been a great champion, with other people, and I note that it is largely women such as Senators Power, Bacik and Zappone who stand up for the rights of gay people, including gay men. I am happy that they are in the forefront because possibly that makes me look moderate.

I do not know.