Sean Barrett (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank everybody here for their kind, informed and generous responses. As the Minister of State has said, this is the start of something which is very much needed post-troika Ireland; this matter is one of the key things that we must address.

Today's debate follows a great tradition. I recall that Edmund Burke, a politician in the UK Parliament, worked so hard to keep what he called "placemen" from Dublin Castle off the board of Maynooth which was being founded as a university largely because of his efforts in the 1790s. Then Mr. Gladstone one day decided he wanted to close the university in Galway and undermine Queens University. He was not doing much good for TCD either but we had two MPs in Westminster who voted against him which led to him losing office and Mr. Disraeli became the Prime Minister. I do not envisage Senator Paddy Burke doing anything radical as his namesake today. It is interesting that such important education decisions were assisted by people in parliament on all of those occasions.

Let me go through some of the comments. I thank my seconder, Senator Crown. We do need to stress academic excellence. We have very well educated and smart young people but I wonder sometimes whether we have lost perspective. Senator Quinn referred to the matter when he asked who pays for everything in the universities and he has seen business schools doing so. I would include economics in that group. People attend lectures that are held in large theatres where 400 people are in attendance in places such as UCD, Trinity, Galway or whatever. Not much public money is spent on them so one wonders why. It is James Hickman's view that the earlier one spends money on people in education, the better. However, there are some strange views on what is worth subsidising. In fact Ireland's ranking in the humanities and social sciences is way above its ranking in some of the other subjects into which we have poured a lot of money so those traditions continue.

I thank Senator Jim D'Arcy for telling us about the relationship between Dundalk Institute of Technology and DCU, the development at Dundalk and his nine years of service there. I also thank Senator Power for her comments. She stressed the importance of social science, research and the arts. There is still such expertise. One could say that Ireland fell apart in 2008 due to the absence of basic economics in crucial places like banks, in the bank regulator's office and so on. We need all subjects to be studied and it will take a lot of high-tech science to make up for what happened to us in 2008.

On that score, and I reiterate my welcome, the Minister of State pointed out to us on his last visit here that he estimated that there were more than 200 apprenticeships available in Austria, Switzerland and Germany but only about a dozen here. He is seeking to remedy that defect in the education system which is important and I wish him well in that regard.

The Minister of State mentioned the GPS. I tried once, using the GPS, to see how one would go from TCD to UCD and the answer was change at "Ballyban" but I did not know where it meant.

Senator Bacik also made many important points such as on diversity and how much the system has been increased which I welcome.

With regards to a role for the alumni, they play a major role in the United States. When I hear people from industry say that universities do not do X, Y and Z my response is "Hey, we have given you the lowest corporate tax rate so how about putting some studentships in there to supply the skills that you can see is in short supply?". Our level of independent funding and philanthropy is low by international standards. I shall be calling on some of the people who make those statements to put their money where their mouth is but it is what operates in other countries.

I appreciate what Senator Norris said about the logo. All that I can say is please do not believe everything that is published in the papers, those changes are far from taking place. I shall leave it at that by saying that I came from a board meeting this morning.

I thank the Minister of State and Senator Reilly. It is important to note that we have on this island two reforming Ministers with responsibility for education, Mr. John O'Dowd, MLA, and Deputy Ruairí Quinn and his colleagues. Before John O'Dowd, Caitríona Ruane, MLA, was the Minister. There has been a long interest in education, North and South. It is very important to have this much-needed dialogue and debate. I have referred to Senator Quinn in respect of business schools, innovation and bankruptcy.

I thank Senator Healy Eames for the points she made. In recent times, teaching has been downgraded. I have received documents suggesting I can use a research fund to buy out my teaching. Why would I want to do that? That is the job I was hired for a good while ago. The duty of a university is to look after a population group primarily aged between 18 and 22 years, and that is tantamount. That is why the taxpayers of Ireland put in so much money. They want their sons and daughters to see the people who should be there, not substitutes or replacements.

International links are important in a sector that has always been international. Even in the hardest of times in recession eras such as the 1950s, the best Irish graduates went to Harvard, Yale, Oxford and Cambridge. While the others had to emigrate, they were always sought after as employees. It has been international for a very long time.

With regard to redressing some of the things that have happened with the restoration of morale and bringing teaching up as an important function, the graduates are the product of the university - research papers are also a product, but the graduates are the primary product - and we have a special duty of care to them. When Senator West, a former Member of the House, was studying mathematics in Trinity he went to the provost's house and the provost taught him mathematics. Into that transaction, we have introduced layers and layers of bureaucracy. It is a huge overhead cost must be tackled. Speaking of clusters, I came across the minutes of one of these layers of bureaucracy, minute No. 9, and I ask what on earth it has to do with getting knowledge from one lecturer to a class of 18 to 22-year-olds. The text refers to how the formal monitoring of progress within the regional cluster will be done via the strategic dialogue process with the compact submission forming the basis of the review, with each compact submission being consistent with other cluster members in respect of cluster objectives and, given the developments in this regard, since the initial submission of the compact, the development of a common work plan could now be inserted as an objective. People should just give lectures to the 18 to 22-year-olds and meet them afterwards. They probably learn more from each other than from the lecturers and lecturers will probably learn more from students than vice versa. We must restore this process, along with the great student debating societies, where five people say there is global warming, five people say there is not, and the jury decides.

There is a herd instinct in research. A well-known scientist, James Lovelock, asks when he can meet an individual scientist and asks why they hunt in herds, with 500 people agreeing that something is a problem. He asks why there are huge grants to do so. In welcoming what the Minister of State said with regard to restoring the world of ideas, I refer to that excitement in education and the tradition of an múinteoir, which was always valued in Irish society. Perhaps we lost it somewhat in the Celtic tiger era and developed an edifice complex, building so many buildings. Let us get back to what that is, where people go to meet inspiring teachers and are inspired in turn and it is passed onto the next generation. We must get through the fog encountered in recent times in the excesses of the Celtic tiger to restore education.

I am delighted to be part of three Bills. I thank the Minister of State for his generosity of reception. All of the Members look forward to working with the Minister of State. I have always disagreed with what John F. Kennedy said in his speech to the Dáil when he quoted Lord Edward Fitzgerald as saying that Leinster House does not inspire the brightest ideas. It does. This is a great place for ideas and we started a lot today. These three Bills will move forward together and it will have massive benefits for education and the people of this country. I thank the Minister of State and my colleagues.