David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I wish the controlling financial mechanisms envisaged in the Bill had been there before the loonies in Trinity managed to squiff €100,000 on this piece of tripe. If one looks at it, it is bland and artistically illiterate with a little squiggle of a book and the removal of the colours. It is a real insult. The fact that apparently the provost and the board are unaware the title is legally University of Dublin already, which is the constituency in which we sit, says a lot about how clued in they are to the real world. I am very concerned about it.

I am also concerned about the fact they decided it is a secular university. I am all in favour of secular universities but let them change the name from Trinity. They should also treat with respect the traditions of the university where it had a particular purpose in its foundation. It had a strong affiliation, which sometimes might have been controversial but in recent days was very positive, with the Church of Ireland, including with the Church of Ireland training college which was kicked out remorselessly and shoved in with the Mater Dei Institute of Education, according to what Senator Barrett told me. All I can say is, "Mother of God, what in the name of Jesus are they at in that place?"

The first intention of the Bill is to create housekeeping, which is a very wise move politically if I may compliment Senator Barrett. People will like this and it is necessary. Of course, one must be careful about too many financial restrictions being placed on universities. The second intention is to put all universities, institutes of technology and technological universities under one regulatory structure which is very good, particularly in light of the fact this appears to be, if the Government has its way, the vast constituency we will all face in the next election, although I believe there will be some hiccups. I ask the Minister of State to take back the fact I certainly will fight tooth and nail to ensure the Government does not get away with the dirty trick it is trying at present of watering down the university seats and not addressing the real issues of the Seanad. It must be all or nothing.

We must also consider the case of academic freedom. The Universities Act 1997 was an important piece of legislation which advanced matters at the time. I remember seconding an amendment put forward by Joe Lee for that Act which copper-fastened academic freedom in the universities. The Act was so highly regarded in terms of the protection of academic freedom that the Swedish Government adopted the model of the new section we had inserted into the Bill. The reason I wish to put this on the record is to point out that the insertion of such a new section would never have happened in the Dáil. The last time we were fighting about saving the university seats, we should have stood proudly on our record on such issues instead of apologising. I never apologised to the people for my role in this House and I never will. I work bloody hard and many other people do so also.

The Bill proposes that we address the problems created by the Cahill v.Dublin City University judgment. I understand this case concerned an attempt to get rid of somebody from the staff, but the attempt was botched - a little like Geraldine Kennedy trying to get rid of John Waters. I put this case in the same context as the case of the two university professors in the history department in Maynooth, who were successfully fired because of conflict with the ethos of the university. This messy issue needs to be cleaned up and I would like an indication from the Government that it intends to do this.

In the helpful memorandum on this Bill, Senator Barrett states that at present, the HEA acts as the regulator, funder, and advocate of the higher education and research sector. Obviously, there are conflicts of interest in this regard - like in Lewis Carroll's "The Mouse's Tale" which states: "I'll be judge, I'll be jury, Said cunning old Fury: I'll try the whole cause and condemn you to death." The HEA has absolute power, but as we know, such power tends to corrupt. I am a little concerned that there may be greater Government involvement, although much funding comes from industry. Therefore, I welcome the creation of the higher education and research grants committee.

This is a good Bill and it has opened up discussion on the issues. In regard to a cost-benefit analysis, this approach does not always work and we must be aware of that. It may not work in the arts to the same extent it does in the accessible areas of science. However, even in the sciences, one must give freedom to what may appear to be rather extravagantly based research because so often in the history of science - think, for example of the accidental discovery of penicillin - discoveries are made by accident as a result of other experiments.