Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I commend all of the Senators who tabled the motion. They have worked on it for a considerable time. I have often wondered whether it has been a waste of time, but we must go through the process anyway.

When Senator David Norris made his powerful speech the Visitors' Gallery was full. I looked around to see what impression he had made on those present and discovered that they were particularly animated. It struck me that if a referendum to abolish the Dáil and enhance the Seanad had been held this evening, all of them would have gone home and voted for doing so. They had the opportunity to come in here and listen to a Member of the House put forward his views in an exceptionally passionate and well-researched way.

I often find that when we have a walk-through vote on a specific issue - and I know full well that this applies to people on the Government side, just as it did to us when we were on that side - we must support something we do not believe in. I do not understand that. In the past we have given out about the proverbial blow of the crozier, but now we get the blow of the Whip, and in a very big way. If one goes against the Whip here one will suffer, and we have all suffered at some time. However, I hope that reform will come in and that we can model it on what is happening in Britain, which we hear about every day. We had an exercise on it two days ago but the sky has not fallen in and the Parliament has not disappeared. This is an area for reform, because it is hypocritical for us all to be voting in a way that we do not believe in. This is something that we should consider.

I attended a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht to discuss the issue of housing in the Traveller community. The Acting Chairman may have been there that day. I was absolutely impressed by the four Travellers who attended because they put their case so well and cogently. The city management people were present as well. It left us in no doubt about the issue, yet we have never taken any step to give Travellers a voice in a place where we could give them a voice. We know they will not succeed in the near future in getting a seat in the Dáil. They certainly should be represented here because there are powerful voices in the Traveller community.

During St. Patrick's week we will all be in here to talk about the Taoiseach's visit to Washington, the diaspora, etc. There are 75 million people of Irish extraction throughout the world but they have no voice in the Seanad. Last week I was in England visiting an Irish community group and people kept raising the issue in discussion. We keep dangling the carrot but then it disappears again and we have no representative here.

The debate on Northern Ireland has become calm. I suggest that the contributions made in the House at the height of the Troubles in the North played a very significant role in the peace process and, by extension, the Good Friday Agreement. I can remember the well-thought-out contributions that were made here and the fact that there was a diverse gathering in the Chamber so we were able to contribute and hold individual views. I have no doubt those views were monitored and people saw our attitude. That was epitomised for me when members of the Orange Order travelled down here to visit the Chamber. It was an historic occasion, but the reason for its importance was the decorum that existed here. It was not a patronising attitude. Here, we have taken away again the opportunity for such people to have a voice. We have had great people here, such as Maurice Hayes and others before him, who made a major contribution. Again, all of this is reform. Therefore, one starts to ask one's self the question of what we mean by reform. Let us be honest. One would have to have a powerful imagination to believe that trying to abolish a House of Parliament, as tried with the Seanad, was reform. Let us think it through. This was put forward as part of a reform package. One would need a powerful imagination to think that getting rid of all of the town councils, which have a tradition and history and whose members are working at the coalface, is reform. That was mentioned in the amendment to the motion. That is not reform; it is quite the opposite. We must clarify for ourselves what we mean by reform. There have been many contributions here - not just today but heretofore - that could be assembled and brought together to show what meaningful reform really means.

Senator Norris put his finger on it very well when he asked that we be given the tools to do the work. We know when we come in here that our hands are tied behind our backs. There is no question about that. There are times when we even start to feel cynical about participating in that type of charade, because that is what it is. All the Government has to do is to give us the tools to do the work, and, second, give us the opportunity to have a more meaningful input, even if it wants a specialised input - if it wants to say that we cannot deal with matters of finance or whatever. There are many areas in which we should have an input. A number of committees in recent times - for example, the Committee of Public Accounts and the committee on which I sit, which has been attended by representatives of Uisce Éireann and other groups - have shown what they are capable of doing when the shackles are removed. It is quite extraordinary. The only way reform will work is if the Taoiseach comes in here and talks to the leaders of the different parties. I urge him to sit down and speak to them in a meaningful way, forget the rebuff of the result of the Seanad referendum, and say, "Yes, we are living in a new Ireland, a new society and a new world, and we have to approach it in that way." Senator Barrett made the point earlier that we are capable of instituting reform ourselves but we are not capable of implementing it. If such a discussion led to a meaningful proposal, we would put meat on the bones. That is what we need. Today, I feel we are speaking to ourselves and we are speaking in a vacuum, which only adds to the cynicism.

When the Taoiseach attended the Seanad, I thought he was very magnanimous.

It was not easy to come in to the House and face Members after the defeat, but he was exceptionally magnanimous. I would go one step further and say, as I said on the day, that we have a Leader - he could not be better - who can lead us along the road I am suggesting. However, that will only happen if we trust each other, are genuine and expand our vision. In this debate we must go further than where we are.