David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I move:

“That Seanad Éireann requests the Government to outline in detail its proposals and estimated time line for radical reform of the Irish political system including reform of Oireachtas procedures, Dáil reform, full proposals for reform of Seanad Éireann, reform of the nomination procedures for the Presidency and reform of the financing of political parties.”

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. It is not, however, an effusive welcome. The motion that I and my Independent colleagues have put down about political reform is not intended to be definitive or exhaustive but is part of a process. I suggest that we continue to have these debates on an all-party basis once a month, as we did, at my suggestion, during the Iraq war when we monitored the progress under the aegis of the then Leader of the Seanad, Ms Mary O’Rourke. That would help us. We should also keep the public informed, through press statements, of what is being said here and what ideas are being explored.

Is the Government serious about reform? I do not think so. I do not believe it for a minute. I do not think any Government ever has been. I have been in this House for the guts of 30 years and have sat on many of the groups that considered reform of the Seanad. I have tabled the results of those all-party agreed motions and they have been voted down by the very people who agreed to them. That does not suggest any great seriousness. I recognise that it is a great deal to ask of any Government or any political party to yield power because any real democratic reform, of the nature of which the Government has been speaking recently, entails a yielding of power and a yielding to a new democratic structure. This Government promised the people of Ireland radical, democratic political reform and so far it has totally failed to deliver on this.

I quote from The Irish Times on 18 January 2014:

Taoiseach Enda Kenny went to the Upper House last October “to listen to ideas on reform”. On the basis of Government briefings since then, however, it would appear that minimal change is envisaged. Such an approach gives politics a bad name. People would welcome effective reform.

That is what I believe as well. I do not believe for one second that people are suffering from referendum fatigue. That is rubbish. That is more dishonesty. They are suffering from rubbish fatigue, from being presented with dishonest, irrelevant referenda. People demanded throughout that campaign that they be given the opportunity to vote for reform of the Seanad and the Taoiseach resolutely refused to allow that. That is what they wanted. If the Government gives it to them they will welcome it. They would think it is a great thing to have a real, radical reform. It should be all or nothing. Tinkering with the university seats is a total and absolute farce.

There is an awful lot of farce about this. During the referendum there was a wonderful situation where we knew the Government and other agencies were deliberately telling lies. It was perfectly obvious. Even their spokespeople on radio were forced into admitting it but they would not take down the posters. I asked about the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, and the Referendum Commission. They were impotent to prevent lies being told to gull the Irish people out of their democratic rights. Why do we not consider as part of our political reform, abolishing the Referendum Commission and SIPO and putting something that will actually work in place instead? With regard to SIPO and so on we all have to sign myriad forms saying we did not get money from here, there and everywhere else. We have to clock in as if we were working in Cadbury’s Chocolates. It is all utter rubbish. It deceives nobody. There is paring away with little cuts. The Irish people do not give a damn. If we got up naked on the roof here, gave away all our possessions and jumped they would not give a toss. They are not impressed and neither am I. It is nitpicking and the dishonest people will get away with it.

Since SIPO was introduced, they continue to get away with it, including in this House. It is only inconveniencing the people who do the work.

I will tell the House something else that would make things a little more democratic; if the Cathaoirleach and the Ceann Comhairle were elected by secret ballot of both Houses, they would then be clearly seen to be independent. That would be very refreshing. I am old enough to have been in the House when every single named officer failed to be elected to anything and they were all nominated by the Government. One of them had failed to be elected to the Seanad. Let us have a little democracy if the Government is serious about it, but I do not believe that is the case for one minute.

This business of vouching expenses, what a tedious piece of nonsense. We should get rid of the whole bloody lot. They are not worth a damn anyway and I am doing it this year. I am already well over what I sought, but it is not my job to act as an accountant for the State. It is also not the job of my wonderful parliamentary assistant to do it. We should not waste time on this penny-pinching theme; we should get an international person or body to give us a reading on what is the rate for the job. What I want is the rate for the job.

With regard to the role of Independents, we have a more onerous role because, unlike people who are in parties, either Government or Opposition, we do not spread the load; we each speak on everything. Perhaps that is irritating for our colleagues, but we do and we have to have a range of expertise on everything. That also should be recognised.

We are in the Stone Age in terms of the facilities and assistance we receive compared to other parliaments. I was in Australia 20 years ago and we still have not caught up with anything like the facilities and services they had available. What about, for example, giving us some assistance with parliamentary draftsmanship? Did that ever strike anyone? This is supposed to be a legislative House, yet we have no assistance. I put a Bill together and it took me two years to do so. I know of other colleagues who have put Bills together and they have had legal help, but it is very difficult work. If the Government wants us to work as we are supposed to do under the Constitution and if we do not want to be just a collection of hypocrites, we must be given the tools to do the job. The Government has not done this and I do not believe it ever will. Members, in particular Independent Members, should be given access to draftspersons.

I have only a few points to make on the Dáil because it is up to its Members to consider their own issues. From the outside, I find it deeply shocking that Ministers evade questions all the time. They just refuse to answer them. They do not give proper or adequate answers. I well remember when the former Taoiseach, John Bruton, gave the smart-alecky reply in the other House that the right question had not been asked. That is not showing respect for Parliament. The Ceann Comhairle should have the right to reprimand and rebuke a Minister or even the Taoiseach. Unfortunately, one cannot torture or force them into it. One cannot put them on the rack and squeeze the truth out of them, but at least one can embarrass and shame them and that is what should happen.

I have said the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach should be elected by secret ballot. The same is true of the Chairmen of committees. The positions are shared out on the basis of how many members a party has. It has nothing to do with their qualifications or interests; it is a perk. That does not get us the best people by any means.

This rubbish about Friday sittings, it is like Joe Duffy’s Fridays - it is a load of nonsense. The Dáil shoves Bills through to get them out of the way, but they are never allowed to pass; nothing ever happens - it is all balls. Why does the Dáil not get rid of them or make them effective? It should do one or the other, but let us not have this charade.

At the meeting we had the Taoiseach suggested we might look at Standing Orders. I would love to do that, for example, look at rulings from the Chair which are complete nonsense most of the time. They come from the Government; they do not come from the Cathaoirleach. I remember asking in 1991 that something be considered as a matter of urgency under section 29, but it was ruled out of order, while the former Taoiseach, Charlie Haughey, was simultaneously declaring a national emergency in the other House. That is just one example. I draw attention to the fact that during a Seanad debate 79 amendments were ruled out of order, all except one, which was disposed of quickly, and that was only discussed for the sake of image. The Chair should be required to give a reason for rulings. Why should we be bullied in this way? It is insufficient to say, “That is my ruling.” We are not children, for God’s sake. We are experienced parliamentarians and should be treated as such. It is rubbish to refer to creating a charge on the Exchequer.