Colm Burke (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House and I welcome his decision to commence the provisions of the Charities Act by appointing a board and an interim CEO, and having staff in place by Easter, which is an important step in this area.

When we came back here in August 2013, for some reason I started getting phone calls from people complaining about moneys being paid to a number of different organisations in the middle of August. Obviously members of the public had concerns for some time. On foot of those phone calls I submitted questions to the HSE and the Department of Health. I hope the replies I received do not indicate how we will do business in the future. I asked the following: if the full details of the salary of senior management and chief executive officers of these voluntary hospitals and organisations were disclosed to the HSE and the Department of Health; if the payscales that applied were similar to the payscales for an equivalent position in a HSE hospital; and if in addition to salary, which was paid to these staff in hospitals and voluntary organisations, the HSE or the Department of Health was aware of any other remuneration being paid.

The response I received in October before the story broke confirmed that they were aware of irregularities, but for some strange reason were not prepared to disclose them to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children. However, within a very short period of time they were prepared to disclose them to the media. I hope this does not set a precedent for future genuine queries with Members of the Oireachtas being the last to be told. When the structures under the Charities Act are set up, I hope that it is not only available to Members of the Oireachtas but also to the general public, without the necessity of submitting questions.

The reply indicated that the payscales developed over many years on an agency-by-agency basis and did not necessarily reflect the comparable size, scale and complexity of each organisation today. It indicated that the matter was currently being addressed jointly between the HSE and the Department of Health with a view to bringing the pay rates of section 38 agencies into line with Department of Health salary scales and that a pay policy would issue shortly in that regard. In 2012 the HSE clearly stated that section 39 agencies should not exceed the payscales that applied to the HSE. Here we are two years later and we still have not received clarification.

Follow-up questions on one of the organisations that is not disclosing salary details were dealt with on 16 January. The HSE, as part of the service-level agreement process for 2014, will require all funded agencies to disclose senior management remuneration and will have systems and processes in place to oversee compliance with respect of each funded agency's service agreement. If the service-level agreement for 2014 clearly sets out the need for full disclosure, why is there still reluctance to making the disclosure at this stage? Do we need to wait for another three months for the agreements to be signed before there is full disclosure? When will the HSE release that information to us?

It is interesting to note the scale of the funding that is taxpayers' money. The reply clearly set out that more than €100 million was being paid to eight different organisations. Between €50 million and €100 million was being paid to four organisations. Between €10 million and €50 million was being paid to 36 organisations. Some 131 organisations are receiving between €1 million and €10 million. That is a lot of money and Members of the Oireachtas and members of the public are entitled to know how it is being spent. We are entitled to know the information that, based on the 2014 service-level agreement, section 39 organisations are now required to reveal, which is very welcome.

However, it also raises other questions. HSE funding to 2,680 organisations now represents 25% of the health budget. Why have we now become so reliant on organisations to provide services in which the State should be far more actively involved? How do we work towards achieving efficiencies by amalgamation of some of these agencies? Will we get better value for money for that? Those are issues we need to address when looking at this overall area. The debate is not just about the implementation of the terms of the Charities Act, but also about getting value for money for the taxpayer in the long term.