Aideen Hayden (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State and Government Chief Whip to the House. It is good to see him here for this particular debate. I welcome also that we are having this debate and congratulate Senator Zappone and her colleagues for putting the motion before the House. I am clear that when the Irish people voted on 5 October they voted to reform Seanad Éireann. There is no doubt that they did not vote for business as usual and as many colleagues have said, the issue is where we go from here. Numerous reports and Bills on reform of the Seanad have been proposed in this House. Those reports and Bills presented a number of options, some of which involve constitutional reform and some of which do not. Most of the proposals, with the exception of Senator Crown's Bill, involve the Seanad having additional powers, which would be welcome. That flows in the face of some of the measures announced recently that do not involve Senators and with which some of us might have a difficulty.

It is important to recognise that there are many different views on the proposals that may be worthy of consideration and how they should be pursued. I have always been of the view that the matter of Seanad reform should have been put to the Constitutional Convention. I do not believe that the Seanad should have been examined in isolation from the rest of the political system. I am a member of the Constitutional Convention and it is interesting that we will shortly be looking at Dáil reform but, again, that will be examined in isolation from the rest of the political system and will not include Seanad reform.

I agree with my colleague, Senator Bacik, that there is no reason reform cannot be incremental. I understand there is an attractiveness in looking at reform in an incremental fashion, particularly reform that does not require constitutional referendum. I know there is a sense of concern that there may be fatigue among the people regarding numerous constitutional referenda being put before them. However, if we are to be true to the people's mandate, and we must respect the people's mandate, we must approach the issue of reform in a more general way than simply looking at non-constitutional reform. If we are to be true to the people's mandate we must go back to what I would call first principles and ask what the Seanad is for and how it fits into the overall political system. In that context we must have real discussion on Seanad reform, which cannot exclude the position of the Seanad in the Constitution.

The Constitutional Convention was one of the most exciting commitments in the programme for Government and in spite of the naysayers, it has proven to be one of the most significant developments that has taken place in the general political debate in the past 12 months. The Constitutional Convention was weakened by not being able to discuss the matter of Seanad reform and I was disappointed that when the matter was raised from the floor by our colleague, there was a clear representation by the chair that the matter could not be considered by the convention. Even allowing for that, it was a narrow defeat.

I have been impressed by the standard of debate in the Constitutional Convention and I genuinely believe that every strand of society is represented there. Some of the members' comments on the overall political system have been interesting. For example, clientalism was seen as a distinctive feature of the Irish political system. For example, some of the convention's proposals would include the majority view that Ministers, on their appointment, should resign their Dáil seats on the grounds, as expressed in the debate, that it would allow them get on with the job and not spend their time fixing potholes and addressing the needs of their constituencies. We cannot go forward by simply saying it will not be business as usual but we should examine the Constitution with a view to determining, for example, how we can change the way in which Senators are elected. To do that would simply give us Seanad light, for want of a better term, and we will end up with a representation of the Dáil in the Seanad.

A number of issues should be considered when we consider Dáil reform. There is a general view, as expressed at the Constitutional Convention, that we lack expertise in the political system. There is a view also that we are here to serve the local community rather than the general public interest. There is another view that diversity and the representation of minority communities is not achieved through the current electoral system. If we want to be serious about Seanad reform, we cannot close the door on constitutional reform. By focusing only on reform that can be achieved through legislative change we will end up tinkering at the margins and not getting to the real issues of why we want a Seanad and its purpose.

We have had a referendum on the university panels, and I agree the Government should proceed with that. It is many years too late but as a first step on a route map to genuine Seanad reform it is at least one gesture towards reform that we can make.