Feargal Quinn (Independent) | Oireachtas source

The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, is very welcome. It is always a joy to listen to her. I always find myself educated. The work being discussed today has educated me once again. I congratulate her on what has been achieved. I know she is not there yet and that she has a long way to go but some of the figures provided today, such as that youth crime has fallen each year for the past three years, are welcome. The Minister also indicated that ever since the new Oberstown centre opened 16-year olds are no longer in adult prisons. Steps have been taken and many things can happen.

I accept there are steps we as citizens can take as well. Listening to Senator Hayden reminded me of one case in point. When we opened a supermarket in a rather rough area the manager was having great difficulty with what he described as the ruffians around the back who were up to no good. He took them aside and explained to them that they were a problem and that he would have to put controls in place. He invited them in to show them what we did. He made friends with them and suddenly they were trusted and it was clear that it was the first time those young people had been trusted. He had practically no trouble with them after that. There are different ways of operating.

I wish to raise a few short points from various parts of the world about the topic under discussion. Last year the Council of Europe published a very interesting report which found that high prison population is a result of policy not of crime. Prison population and overcrowding in European countries is linked to sentence length and not to the number of people incarcerated.

It is well known among experts that if we have politicians who raise the issue of crime as being a massive problem in society, judges feel obliged to give longer sentences, resulting in more people in prison.

I looked up the Fine Gael website and it repeatedly states the party "stands for law and order and believes in tough sentences for criminals". That is understandable, but prison populations are inexorably linked to politics and policies of political parties. They are not simply due to more crime being committed. Arne Nilsen, the governor of Norway's Bastoy prison which is situated not too far outside Oslo, says the big difference with the prison system in Norway is that there is no unnecessary political interference in the system and its processes. There is no pressure from a cynical media either. The rate of re-offence in Bastoy is the lowest in Europe, at 16%. Mr. Nilsen said: "The Norwegian people do not like a crime or criminals, but we have a duty to society and to potential victims to release people from prison less likely to commit more crime." It is interesting to hear the aim is to release people from prison who are less likely to commit more crime. He went on to say: "By paying attention and respecting the humanity of the men who come here, that is what we do."

Could we learn more from other European countries in order to reduce our prison population, especially in terms of youth? In Germany and the Netherlands, young people aged 18 to 21 can be treated either as juveniles or adults, depending on the seriousness of the crime, the circumstances in which it was committed and the personality of the defendant. In Scandinavian countries, sentence lengths are systematically reduced for young adults. We are all well aware of the issues that surrounded St. Patrick's Institution and the large number of young adults under 21 who were held there under 23-hour lock-up. This should be an impetus to follow the lead of other European countries to change the way we deal with young offenders. It is clear the Minister is doing that, but it should be part of the plan to reduce prison numbers.

It is worth noting that in Germany education and vocational training are central, even for juveniles in custody. We can learn from these examples when it comes to setting policy in this area. I understand the situation is similar in the Netherlands and that imprisonment is a last resort. It is interesting to hear there is a plan to change the law in the United Kingdom so that, for the first time, all prisoners will receive at least 12 months tailored, "through-the-gate" supervision upon release. Surely, instead of building more prisons, we should look at such examples, especially when it comes to reintegrating youth successfully into society.

We need to implement more community service, rather than prison sentences. The well-respected policy think tank, the Howard League for Penal Reform, conducted research demonstrating that community service sentences can reduce re-offending by up to 22%, compared with short custodial sentences of up to 12 months. Community service provides a facility for things to get done that probably would not have been done and provides offenders with a routine of work. This can build their self-esteem and, perhaps, change their lives for the better, rather than locking them up at enormous cost to the taxpayer. In the United Kingdom, community service is now officially referred to as compulsory unpaid work. Why do we not call a spade a spade here? I would be interested in hearing the Minister's view on this.

One of the topics related to both juvenile and adult justice is the term "restorative justice", where the offender pays back for his or her crime. This is happening in the United Kingdom and in Northern Ireland. In the United Kingdom, citizens can nominate a local project or vote for the project they wish to see benefit from unpaid labour. This is interesting and is worth considering here. The Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Justice was quoted as saying of community payback that "punishment should be tough and we want to see low level offenders out making improvements to local communities as payback for the damage they have done." It is worth considering community payback as an option.

The Minister is doing a great deal and significant work has been done, but there is clearly more to do.

Much more has to be done, but we are moving in the right direction. I am pleased that the Minister informed the House about what she is doing in this area and hope she will even learn from Senators’ contributions today. I congratulate her on what she has done so far and encourage her to continue with the same effort and enthusiasm she has shown.