Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil le gach Seanadóir a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo. Measaim go raibh díospóireacht oscailte againn. Bhí tuairimí á nochtadh ar ghach taobh den Teach agus tá an aidhm céanna ag an chuid is mó dínn ar a lán ábhar. Tuigim, áfach, go bhfuil ceist spesialta ag an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh faoi seo. Caithfidh mé caint faoi sin níos déanaí.

This has been an important, open and frank debate. I welcome the comments from all Members in what was a constructive and informative debate. It is the right way to conduct a proper debate and this House comes into its own in such situations, where the political stuff is kept to a minimum but the facts, questions and realities that are brought to me and that I am learning from Members are extremely important.

If I may, I will deal with the contributions in the order in which they were made. Senator Walsh spoke of an expensive quango with huge salaries. The first point to note is that the salary of the chief executive is a matter of public record. The entire reason there will be charges from the outset is because of the troika agreement signed by Fianna Fáil. As the Oireachtas notes indicate, water charges were originally meant to be in place by 2011-12. This Government has negotiated a change in that they will not commence until the beginning of 2015. A question regarding different councils was raised by Senator Walsh and other Members, that is, the difference between Kildare, Kerry, Wicklow or whatever. At present, different counties have different commercial charges but notwithstanding that, the average charge for water in Ireland is approximately €2.50 per 1,000 litres. In other words, for every bottle of Ballygowan or whatever for which one pays €2.50 in a pub, the State will supply 1,000 litres of water, so there is great value for water in Ireland at present. Therefore, I believe we are being cost-efficient in its production but greater efficiency must be achieved.

As for the question of consultants raised by Senator Walsh as to how much they will cost and who they are, the key point is that any cost placed on the cost of water will be imposed by the regulator and such costs must be placed there transparently. In other words, the regulator will neither be able nor will wish to add in costs that are not reasonable, not fair or which are not computed efficiently, fairly and practically. Consequently, there is no question of there being hidden costs in respect of the transparency of how the regulator will make its decision. While no one mentioned it - perhaps Members were unaware - last Friday, the regulator concluded a consultative period with the public. It was a publicly advertised document on its website, advertised in the national press, on how the company would go about charging and what would be the process, without going into the nitty-gritty of the actual charges themselves, as well as how that will work. I suggest Members might wish to access the CER website and read that document. Following this consultative period, the Government will be informed by 22 December as to what will be the advice the regulator will give to the Government in respect of the consultation period, which I believe to be important.

A question was raised about how the commission will limit the level of charges that Irish Water can charge, which is the point I am making. The commission will determine the structure of domestic water tariffs and take account of the Government's pricing framework. An issue raised by many Members pertained to what will be the free allowance and to the level of social supports. I revert to the point made by Senator Ó Clochartaigh about water poverty, which is a very important consideration in my reflection on these issues. Where a family is deemed to be in water poverty - I believe the definition is that the cost is greater than 3% of its income - then supports must be in place and this will be the case. It is both important that everyone will get a free allowance and that the question of affordability is a key and critical part of everything that will happen. It is important that there is transparency and accountability in this regard.

Senator Clune raised the question of the role of the regulator and makes an important point about Bord Gáis customer relations and how they will relate to one another. At present, on the basis of my personal experience, I believe Bord Gáis does an excellent job in customer relations. It has an 1850 number that one calls, just like the ESB, which I also believe to be fantastic, in terms of the national content of the messages that come to one locally. I believe the same will be true with the call centre but I wish to make the point clearly that the commitment of Uisce Éireann is that each councillor in the country will have a contact number in his or her locality who will be responsible to that councillor for all the information needed. Moreover and importantly, Members will be able to pass on such information to them via that communication channel as well. There will be no change in that regard and it is a key and core element.

I understand Uisce Éireann has appointed regional communicators who will deal specifically with elected members and with councils. I cannot over-emphasise that point and its importance.

Senator David Norris raised the issue of the free allowance and asked how people who cannot afford to pay will be supported. At the Cabinet sub-committee on economic infrastructure we agreed that an interdepartmental working group will advise the Government on the appropriate methods for addressing water poverty. The group, which includes representatives from the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Social Protection, the Taoiseach, Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, is tasked with identifying the groups likely to face affordability issues, examining the appropriate mechanisms to address these issues, taking account of the broader social policy agenda, including systems integration and labour activation, preparing a high level action plan and identifying costs. In recent weeks the group has looked at a range of options for addressing affordability. To fully inform its work, it has met a wide range of stakeholders. The group expects to report to Government before the end of the year. The agreed approach to affordability issues will be reflected in a charging structure established by the regulator. That is a critical part of the process.

Senator Norris made a point about reducing water. If a meter is installed, water wastage and unaccounted for water on the customer's side goes down. In Ballycroy, County Mayo, a fantastic group water scheme is in place which involves young people in schools. That scheme has reduced water consumption by more than 70% through proactive community measures, part of which has been metering. Senator Norris asked how one deals with a person who is sick and whose water supply is restricted. That is an important issue. It is proper that there would be proportionate action in terms of restriction of water, particularly if a person can afford to pay. If a person is unwell, that is an entirely different matter.

The question of Georgian pavements, heritage streets and the historic infrastructure of towns and cities was raised in terms of metering. That is a very important point. I will ask Uisce Éireann to respond directly on that issue. It is right and proper that there would be appropriate metering. NewERA, an entity which is responsible to the Minister for Finance, advises the Government on all manner of issues - the purchase of State assets, issues relating to water and many others. Perhaps I will get a note to Members on the role of NewERA, which would be helpful to everybody. The level of unaccounted for water is very high and we believe that will be reduced.

Senator Deirdre Clune spoke about Cork city and county where there was not joined-up thinking, the water supply to the city was not connected to the water supply to the county, and the city suffered because its supply was interrupted. This is not about local authorities having their own little quango and running their 34 water services. It is about joined-up thinking, regional development, planning and so on all joined together, which is not the case at present. I agree with the Senator that 42% of water is wasted nationally, which is an appalling waste. The idea is to have a constructive plan on how to deal with water wastage in order that when people are asked to pay, they will be given the facts and will buy into it.

Senator Denis Landy raised the critical and important question of labour, the Labour Relations Commission and staff issues. It is critical that local authority staff are happy, consent to what is happening and that the agreements that have been reached are successful. There is an independent chair on the committee that deals with issues that arise. The agreement is for a period of 12 years. Senator Terry Brennan asked why it is not for a lesser period. In looking ahead, I think 12 years allows people to make career choices and it allows time for Uisce Éireann to bed in. If at the end of that period they are still in the water system, the obvious place for them to be is in Uisce Éireann, not with the local authorities because they will not handle water issues any longer. Even at that stage, as provided for in the Bill, there must be consultation, six months notice must be given and there is an opportunity for representations to be made. Nobody will be ruthlessly pushed out of business into a place to which they do not want to go. The procedure must be fair, balanced and proportionate and there must be consultation.

Many Members raised the role of the Commission for Energy Regulation. If Members were to table amendments on Committee Stage, we could provide some more information. It would help me to get the answers Senators want. The role of the CER is critical to the credibility and transparency of decision-making, how and why it is done and how one makes representations. As I understand it, the CER will propose to charge a certain amount for water and Senators will have the opportunity to debate that. I do not see why the Seanad would not have a look at it and make its own approach. I advise Members to get their messages in. It is all about making the CER accountable in a transparent way. The role of the CER in its consultative role is about sustainable, secure and reliable water, fair charging, transparency and accountability.

Senator Denis Landy asked what happens when premises cannot be metered. When conventional meter installation is not possible, alternative approaches will be considered. An estimate of the amount of water consumed and wastewater discharged will calculated by the application of a formula in the water plan. For the purposes of calculating charges, the amount of wastewater will be deemed to be equal to the amount of water supplied, unless otherwise engaged. For example, if one is in a water processing industry or activity where water is taken out and used in the manufacturing process, there will be an agreement on that issue. It will be fair and it will have to be seen as transparent. Irish Water is undertaking a review of its approach to the second phase of metering, which will include apartments. Many Members raised that issue. I agree very much with Senator John Whelan. Half of the people in Europe live in apartments, so what is the big deal? Let us find out the best way to meter apartments and let us do it fairly to ensure everyone who can have a meter has one.

Disconnection is a key issue. Nobody wants people to be cut off totally. Everybody agrees it is a human rights issue to have access to water, but we cannot have people who can afford to pay but will not getting away with blue murder. That cannot and will not happen. The code of practice and protocols will have to be put in place and will have to be clear. We will be able to discuss them in the House or the Seanad may wish to make suggestions or table amendments. I advise Members to submit their arguments to the Department and get them into the system.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill mentioned group water schemes. Such schemes will continue to be completely separate from Uisce Éireann. There will be no connection between them. If a group water scheme is on the public water supply, a charge is in place. Its members already pay for water. I do not know how it works in the case referred to by the Senator but I will get absolute clarity for him on what charges apply if a group water scheme is getting a public water supply.

I am not clear on the question about remote housing. If one has one's own water supply in the country, that is one's own business. If one does not discharge into a public sewer that is one's own business. If one has one's own private water supply but one discharges into a public sewer, I presume one would have to pay for the pubic sewer discharge. There will have to be total clarity, fairness and equity. I refer the Senator to the consultative document from the CER. It is important to keep one's eye on everything on that website.

My colleague, Senator Terry Brennan, has great expertise in metering in electricity and so on, and spent a lot of time looking after his constituents in a very effective way-----