Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. One of the consequences of the human condition is that we can never really know what it is like to walk in somebody else's shoes. That can be a good or a bad thing. One of the bad things, however, is that we can never fully appreciate what it is like for somebody to be harmed in the way these images indicate, unless one is the victim. That is why it is so important for the EU and national governments to act in the way we are seeking to do at the moment.

I will now touch on individual comments by Senators. Senator Leyden set an important note for the debate in recognising that this is a crime without borders. As a result we need national and international institutions to co-operate effectively. In order for that to happen it requires laws, treaties and institutions to implement them.

Senator Conway also referred to that point and asked when the Bill would be introduced. I have done my best to answer that. He also asked if the heads of the Bill will be referred to the relevant committee. I can only answer that question generally. We have given an undertaking that for all non-emergency legislation, the heads of Bills will be referred to committees. I would hope that such an approach would be utilised under this legislation also.

I want to reassure Senator van Turnhout that it was not anyone's intention to air-brush - as she put it - her contribution or that of the Seanad generally to this debate. I want to make that very clear to her. As somebody who spent a lot of time in this House, and then in the Dáil, writing reports whose impact in the light of day was questionable, I would not like to give that impression to Senator van Turnhout.

The impact of pornography in cyberspace on the minds of those who see it was mentioned by the Senator and she has touched on something I agree with. One of the most malignant consequences of the Internet has been the casualisation of sexuality, as I would see it. Unfortunately, child pornography is the most apt example of that.

She introduced the phrase "crime scene" on which I have commented and asked about Article 25, which I followed up on during the debate. I have been given to understand that the reason for taking time in implementing this article is that we believe a robust implementation of it will be very technical. The Department is taking it very seriously and giving it careful consideration. If the Senator wants more information on it, I can request it and pass it on.

The Senator's core point was on negotiations between the State, our agencies and Internet service providers. Senator Mary Ann O'Brien, who is sitting beside Senator van Turnhout, asked what was happening in the UK and our view in that regard. The Department has informed me that negotiations are at a very advanced stage. We can never reveal the consequences of any negotiations with any party until they are concluded. The Senator should rest assured that we want to respond as effectively as we can. While I had not read the Senator's report prior to this debate, for which I apologise, I read through it this morning while the debate was proceeding. The Senator described us as the Internet capital of Europe. I would like to hope we are but we may have some way to go towards achieving that. Either way, we are conscious of our responsibilities, not only to children within our own borders, but also elsewhere.

Senator Bacik spoke about the importance of the first interview, on which I completely agree. She asked why we are not going down the statutory route. We want to see where our current approach gets us and we will take it from there if we need to strengthen it even further.

Senator Quinn illustrated very effectively the nuances behind this debate and why it is so difficult to move it forward, which is that the vindication of one person's right can have consequences on other people. Within civil society we need to act very carefully to weigh up how to deal with difficulties that we all agree need to be tackled while recognising the rights of people. He illustrated very clearly some of the practical consequences of that. I would be confident that we can deal with the evil we are discussing here while recognising and vindicating the rights of people to act in a way that either befits their adulthood or to act in a way that allows them to engage with the Internet in a way they see fit. I return to a point I made at that start. I believe all rights should be bounded at the point where they cause grievous difficulty to other people.

I commend Senator Clune on the work she does in the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly. She touched on something with which I agree regarding an undercurrent of our history - the dark thread of our history - which is our frequent failure to look after our most vulnerable. Members from all parties and none will be conscious of that and we are doing our best to respond to that now. Tragically we are doing it at a time when the resources available are less than we would want. However, that acknowledgement is there in a way that it has not been in the past.

Senator Mooney spoke about the time lag. A few weeks ago I was discussing with a constituent of mine the number of times she had to be vetted and the delay in doing so. I have pursued the matter and have been informed that everything possible is being done to reduce the lead-time. However, the issue of training to have the right people in place to do the work is difficult.

I have to be careful not to confuse Senator Hayden with Senator Leyden because once I hear the wrong thing said I am inclined to repeat it myself. Senator Hayden illustrated very well the differences, which were new to me, between the Deep Web, the Mesh Net and the Dark Net. I made the point that we need to move beyond filters in what we are doing. I have no doubt that the Senator is correct, but I argue that one of the early steps we need to make in any coherent response is to deal with the filtering issue. She is correct in pointing out that the more decentralised any system is, the easier it is for one person to get in and cripple it. While that crippling can sometimes have negative consequences for the rest of us, in this particular case the consequences can only be for the best.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien urged us to increase the urgency of dealing with the issue. I hope the update I have given the House will address her point.

I wish Senator Keane well in her meeting with the Commissioner tomorrow. I fully agree with what she said about the Garda. I was involved in a recent case regarding an allegation of child prostitution. Thank God, it turned out to be an unfounded allegation in that while people were making it with the very best of intentions, when it was investigated it turned out to be unwarranted. The Garda responded to it in an extraordinarily impressive way. I say this against the backdrop of having considerable engagement with the Garda on how it responds to the issue of prostitution overall, how it engages with organisations such as Ruhama and how it works with terribly vulnerable women involved in that area. When the issue of child prostitution was raised, the urgency, if anything, significantly increased and I was very impressed by that.

I am glad to hear the point Senator Ó Clochartaigh made on legislation, which is one I make frequently. Legislation needs to be enabling in the first place. It is not the role of legislation to instruct a technical expert on how to respond to a matter in a technical way. The purpose of legislation is to give him or her the power to do so and then to set parameters for him or her to carry out that role. Legislation such as this needs to be enabling and occasionally less detail can mean more in the sense that the role of legislation is to provide a foundation within which experts can do their work effectively. I agree with the Senator on that point and I thank his party for supporting this legislation. I was going to say I look forward to discussing the EU reception and directive with the Senator, but that would be an inappropriate term to use, although I am sure we will be discussing it.

I was aware of the point Senator Brennan made about abuse overall. Tragically in the majority of cases it is perpetrated by people known to the victim - often people well known to the victim. That is why we need all the legislation we discussed. The Senator asked how we can encourage people to come forward. The answer appears to lie in awareness and education which are unbelievably important in responding to that. I am confident in saying that we are endowed with professionals in this area who have the sensitivity and compassion we would want them to have when dealing with this terribly difficult case. From my personal experience I know that the training is improving thereby allowing them to do their job better. We need an overall legislative framework involving the forthcoming legislation and other Bills mentioned such as vetting legislation, etc. This will create an environment which, as Senator Ó Clochartaigh said, will enable people to do the job we all wish them to do.

I thank Senators for their contributions. They have already been noted by Department of Justice and Equality officials and will be passed on to the Minister, Deputy Shatter. We are all united in trying to put in place the strongest possible response to what we acknowledge is an unspeakable evil. I again emphasise that we are not talking about scenes of crime, but scenes of torture.