David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I do not support amendment No. 4 because it would reverse the entire intention of the Bill. It is unrealistic because there are clearly circumstances where it is important and proper to end the life of a foetus in preference to the loss of life of the mother. That might not be in line with the Constitution but, as I have already said, that was a mistaken amendment. Everybody now knows it was a huge error.

I am much more in sympathy with the other proposals in this group. However, in regard to amendment No. 37, in the name of Senator Rónán Mullen, as I understand it, the provision contained therein is already the position in the legislation as it stands, namely, that when a foetus becomes viable, the effort will be made to preserve that life. That is my understanding of the legislation as it exists. I am sympathetic to the amendment, but it is redundant.

In regard to the first part of amendment No. 38, in the name of Senator Fidelma Healy Eames, I would make the same argument, that it is already covered. The second part of the amendment states: "where the unborn is sixteen weeks gestation or older, an effective anaesthetic for pain relief shall be administered to the foetus before the medical procedure is commenced". If this is an effort to generate political momentum behind the notion that the foetus is a complete and separate individual, I do not agree with it. However, if it can be demonstrated medically that the foetus is capable of experiencing pain, then of course it would be natural to administer an anaesthetic. I have no problem with that and hope doctors would do it in any case. I have no difficulty with either part of Senator Healy Eames's amendment, but the first is already covered and the second is presumably standard medical practice where it can be demonstrated that the foetus is capable of feeling pain. However, I would not like it to be taken as an opportunity to push the notion that the unborn - that is a very unattractive description which reminds me of "undead"; I do not like it - is a separate individual. Pain relief should certainly be administered where the foetus can demonstrably feel pain. One would do the same for an animal. In short, I have no real difficulty with this part of the amendment, with the proviso I have given, but if I have understood the Minister's response, it is not possible for the legislation to be prescriptive of medical practice to that level of detail.