Rónán Mullen (Independent) | Oireachtas source

If Senator O'Donnell sought to clarify a point, it would be reassuring if the Minister for Health, assisted by his officials, conferred some kind of legitimacy on the clarification. I do not think that has happened. I am not sure whether what the Senator said, the desirability of which Senator David Norris concurred with, stands up. I am sure the Senator made the point in good faith, but we have heard testimony from experts on the pro-choice and pro-life side and abortion practitioners that there is an issue of foetal pain. We cannot accept Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell's words, with due respect to her, as providing some kind of reassurance that there is no problem. The Minister has not given us any kind of reply. For all he said, we do not know whether he has ever thought about the issue of foetal pain.

The Minister has told us nothing. When an issue such as this arises in any other legislature, its Members are given some information for the assistance of their understanding and deliberation. The Minister has done nothing of the kind. That, in itself, is absolutely shocking.

The Minister stated he can tell doctors what treatments are legal but he seems to be saying we cannot tell doctors what treatment to use. What is it that prevents him from being prescriptive of medical practices, where necessary, in order to attend to and honour the dignity of the unborn child, even in circumstances where his or her life is to be lost, and requiring, none the less, that the doctor not be prevented from what the legislation requires him or her to do? This mantra that the Minister cannot be prescriptive of clinical practice is untrue; he can because he is the Minister responsible for health.

The only case in which he should not be prescriptive of medical practitioners would be if his being prescriptive were to have an overreaching effect and prevent practitioners from doing what they would need to do to protect a person's life or health. Nobody is talking about that here. If we are, or if there is a circumstance in which the administration of pain relief to an unborn child might cut across a doctor's ability to carry out the medical treatment that the law permits, he should tell us. He should show us some evidence that he consulted on this. He should not give us mantras, however. I ask again for some information, at the very least. It is simply not acceptable to say he will not engage with us on this because he will not be prescriptive, the result being that he gives us no information. That shows nothing but contempt for the legislative process. Even if he regarded Senators as mere advisers, he ought to engage with us. In theory, at least, we are supposed to be the people who, in conjunction with the Members of the Dáil, decide whether one can do as proposed. Obviously, that is a very theoretical idea. I ask the Minister one last time, if only to ease our concerns, to share with us his understanding of the pain issues.

I have not spoken to my amendment No. 37, as other amendments in other groups actually deal with the same topic. I will not hold up the House at this point; suffice it to say my amendment concerns what happens to a child who is viable. I did not find the Minister's reassurance in this regard very reassuring at all. He said that if a viable baby is born, everything will be done to sustain its life. He told us about infanticide, etc. We know there will be no destructive procedures permitted after delivery, but many of the amendments ahead of us today, and ahead of the Minister if he stays with us, pertain to what happens prior to and in the course of delivery. The amendments seek to address what I hope are unintended lacunae in the Bill and not something more sinister.