Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Perhaps those late-term abortions would not be allowed. If they are not to be allowed, will the Minister point out the part of the Bill forbidding them? What assurances can we get that this barbaric practice will not be allowed to happen, as it is in many countries where abortion is available? If it is allowed to happen, surely it would be an inhumane act, and the pain inflicted on the unborn baby would be absolutely appalling.

Although I support the amendments, I have gone a step back with my amendment. Senator Norris and others may have picked up the point incorrectly but it is not my intention to impede or interfere with any case arising from sections 7 or 8. The amendment will not do so. The Minister is not accepting it as it would, in effect, any abortion taking place under section 9, as it involves the direct and intentional killing of the baby.

With regard to foetal pain, at eight weeks - which is very early in pregnancy - a child can make tiny fists, get hiccups and whatever else. That baby is evolving. At 11 weeks, the placenta continues to supply food and oxygen, and the child has legs and can make complex facial expressions and even smile. Current medical technology is able to prove this. That is the first trimester. At 16 weeks, the child can use hands to grasp, swim and turn somersaults. At 18 weeks, still in the second trimester and at a time when the baby would be regarded as not viable by many, he or she is active and energetic and can flex muscles. That is often the first indication to a mother as she can feel the baby in her womb.

We are talking about a mother's life but the Minister has rightly indicated the need to protect the unborn as well. Surely to goodness we can do that by building in as many safeguards as possible. I do not see that within the Bill and, unfortunately, by leaving medical procedures open, we are leaving women open to a coterie of "medical procedures", although they are not in the medical interest of the child.

Will saline abortions, suction aspiration, dilation and curettage and dilation and evacuation be permitted under this Bill? I know the Minister does not want to be prescriptive but if we are voting on this Bill - and particularly the people in the Minister's party who are supporting it - we should do it knowing what the Bill is about. That is why so many people have reacted to what I put on the record on Second Stage. The Irish Times has campaigned strongly for abortion and I compliment the newspaper for at least publishing what is an abortion, although the reporter was disgusted. If anybody is disgusted with a description of what happens with an abortion, whether in this House, the medical profession, the Department, the HSE or elsewhere, they would be disgusted to a factor of 100 if they envisaged the procedure becoming a reality in practice. As Senator Bradford rightly stated, it is an inconvenient truth.

What procedures will be allowed if the Minister is not to be prescriptive in the Bill? If the Minister puts it on the record of the House, it will at least given an indication to a court that would subsequently determine what is allowed; it would demonstrate the intention of the Minister for Health when he introduced the Bill to the Houses.