Jimmy Harte (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I have no problem with the referendum. The people will speak on it. This is about the people of the country and not about us in here. Outside those gates and across the country, people do not care tonight about what happens to the Seanad because they are dealing with severe mortgage debt and are suffering from unemployment. We are talking in a bubble here. Perhaps the Minister of State is partially correct to say that we are talking to ourselves, but we are talking to ourselves within a bubble and we should realise that there is something more important out there than the referendum on the Seanad. The public will decide that and this is where the power of the public comes in. If there is only a 30% turnout some might say that most have not voted, but the people who will not vote are making the same statement that they do not really care. We meet people every day whose biggest concern is how to get to the end of the month, to the end of the week, or even how they get through the day. We have to let the people decide.

Perhaps the people will come out and say that they want to retain the Senate, and then a meaningful reform will take place. It is ultimately their call. We are not voting to get rid of ourselves. We are voting to let the people decide that and we will abide by the decision of the people. That is where democracy comes in.

I must congratulate the Taoiseach on his leadership on difficult issues such as the legislation on the protection of life during pregnancy. It is very easy to run away from it, and other people ran away from it when they were more concerned with telling people to hang themselves because they were giving out about what was happening in the country. Those are megalomaniacs. Those are the guys who put the country in hock to Europe and to the rest of the world. To insult the Taoiseach of the country for any reason is unfair. It does not reflect on us. The Taoiseach can be removed tomorrow if 84 TDs decide to have another leader. That is democracy but we do not have that say, nor does the public. The public will reflect on the value of the Seanad and by bringing the issue into focus, we will see the benefits of it. I do not include the Minister of State among those who are kicking us around the place, because it is an easy thing to do. The very same people are criticising the public out there for kicking the Government, when they are kicking their own colleagues. It is unfair to this institution, which has served the country.

I was a member of a town council for 17 years. They are being done away with. In my experience in Letterkenny, the town councils have provided a fantastic contribution. However, just because they are being abolished, we are not kicking them around saying that town councils are useless. The town council has had a very-----