Paul Bradford (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Rather than being depressed, we must now go forward and begin to explain to the people of this island why we believe the Seanad should be maintained. As I have stated on numerous occasions, I would be the first to accept that we need considerable reform, not only of this House but of Irish politics. We need reform of the Dáil and of local government. When my Government colleagues and friends remark that Scandinavian countries and many others make do with a single parliamentary system they very comfortably gloss over the fact that all of those countries have very strong and democratic local government, which we do not. They have parliamentary safeguards, checks and balances.

I look forward to that part of the debate and I look forward to debating the question of costs. The €15 million has become €20 million. However, if we are really serious about saving money in the building that is Leinster House we can ask ourselves whether the cost of a Deputy, who costs two and a half, three or four times as much as a Senator by way of his or her additional staff, office and other allowances, is not something that could be examined. We can look at the whole area of Government advisors and pose the question, as I have done, of whether unelected advisors, who are in every Department of Government, are worth two or three times the salary of perhaps imperfectly elected Senators. We look at the quangos and the list of those that were to be abolished and see they are still standing strong. All of these matters must become part of the genuine debate, as I know the Minister of State, with his own tradition of parliamentary democracy and political reform, will wish them to be. Those questions need to be asked.

What I would say to my colleagues is that although we are losing tonight's battle, there is a message that must be given to the people. They must be told about what we have seen here in recent times in regard to the centralising of power. One of the parties in Government is very much influenced by the concept of democratic centralism, in which a small number of people decide what the policy of that party is, hand out the scripts and literally give people their thoughts. This is not speculation or supposition but historical fact. I do not want that cancer of politics to spread throughout the body politic and Leinster House.