Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

It is a debate on Second Stage. The number of people from Ireland going to England is obviously a worrying trend. There has been a reduction but last year 3,982 women were registered as being from Ireland.

That is a large number but it is not necessarily related to suicidality. We cannot judge, condemn or condone any situation the women found themselves in. I will not make a judgment on that matter.

I dealt with the amendment to the Constitution in 1982 and 1983, which was wisely inserted by the late Charles J. Haughey and Garret FitzGerald. There was pressure at the time from the pro-life movement but they went ahead with the amendment. Perhaps it was wise. If it was not in place, would the Government, forced and pressurised by the Labour Party, not be prepared to go further than the Bill even envisages? Those two leaders gave leadership and the amendment was made to the Constitution meaning the unborn is protected to some extent. The Supreme Court may decide that the Bill is unconstitutional if it is passed by the House, although nobody should be so presumptuous to think it will be passed by the House.

David Steel who was, unfortunately, the author of liberal abortion in England said the Government would make a mistake if it went ahead with plans to legalise termination on the grounds of a threat of suicide. The Scottish peer, whose 1967 Act permitted abortion up to the 28th week of pregnancy, said an Irish law which decides who can avail of a termination by ticking boxes would be "very difficult to implement". He has a burden of responsibility for the number of people who have died through abortion and have been aborted in the intervening years. The evidence is clear. When I attended a Council of Europe meeting in Strasbourg, there was a debate about a proposal to liberalise abortion, on which the Labour Party representative abstained to my surprise. This significant proposal cannot be implemented legally because of our Constitution. I naturally voted against it, as did the Fine Gael representative. A Canadian senator with observer status at the Council praised this great liberalisation. She pointed out that her father, who was mayor of Toronto, had great humanity, wisdom and kindness because he helped many women to secure legal abortions in the Netherlands because they were not permitted in Canada. He made arrangements for them and she was proud of that. She told me about a young married woman who approached him. She had seven children and was expecting her eighth. The Senator's father arranged for her to have the eighth child aborted in the Netherlands. I am an eighth child and my mother brought me into the world in difficult times but she was pro-life. I thank her for that courage and commitment.

We are all impressed by where we come from and everyone plays a part in the jigsaw that is this world. "What a wonderful world", as the famous song goes. Does the Minister realise what he is doing depriving a viable child of the right to enjoy what we are enjoying now by approving an abortion? A viable healthy child of up to 28 to 30 weeks will be left to die on a table in some hospital. The Government has gone too far in this regard. I recognise all the mothers on this island who have brought children into the world. I would never judge anyone who makes a decision under enormous pressure. It was not a nice environment in the 1960s or 1970s for women who fell pregnant. They were treated abominably by the State. What happened in the Magdalen Laundries is well known.

Passing this legislation will not rectify or change the past but it will influence the future. I appeal to my colleagues to vote "No" to this Bill. I thank those who have sent cards and postcards or called to make their points well known. I acknowledge them for their efforts. I am comfortable. I was here in the 1980s and 1990s when abortion referenda were held and in 2002 when a good abortion referendum was defeated by extreme right wing people. Deputy Micheál Martin, who was Minister at the time, was courageous bringing that forward. We had it practically through only for the last minute intervention of certain people.

I respect everyone's view on this sensitive issue. We all have our own positions and nobody has a monopoly on wisdom. I respect the Government parties' decision to do what they feel is right and proper. That is their view and we have our individual views. I will not disrespect anyone's view or the decision they make on this Bill.