David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I will certainly absolve the Cathaoirleach from any of that, but there is no point in denying that there has been massive lying going on all over the place.

I have a serious point to make to the Minister of State. I do not believe for one second that there is any intention to reform the Dáil in the way he suggests. The Government has a massive majority in the Dáil. Is the Minister of State suggesting that these wonderful reforms, which will limit the powers of Government, will be shoved through with enthusiasm by the Government? That has never once happened in history. Even if the Minister of State gets his malign little wish and is able to destroy the Seanad, we will continue on until the next election, so we may have another two years. If the Minister of State is serious, why does he not give a commitment to bring this before both Houses - even supposing the Seanad is abolished - and then somebody might take him seriously? I do not think anybody will take him seriously if it is just going to be another one of these little solo runs down in Dáil Éireann. The Government has a vast majority so it can just steamroller it through. The proposal should be put to the people. Let them see the pig. Let us have an open discussion here. Even if the Minister of State does manage to abolish the Seanad, we will still be here. That is something useful that we can do over the two years that will probably left after that.

We should get a commitment that they are going to use the Seanad for this final task, although I do not believe that the people are stupid enough to let the Government away with this. Why does the Minister of State not give us such a commitment? Let us see the colour of his money, rather than these vague, wishy-washy promises and blather about reforming the Dáil, which nobody believes.

Can the Minister of State show me an example in history where even the most well-meaning government clips away at its own powers? It has never been done. It is a principle in politics that once one grabs powers, even the incoming administration, which may have opposed them, will hang onto them like glue. Therefore, I do not believe the Minister of State.