David Cullinane (Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I am not saying that the Minister of State would argue that but some people would argue that line.

I am saying some people argue that line. There might be people within the Fine Gael Party or in government who take the view that it would be great if reform could be put to the people, but, really, they have no choice but to put a simple proposition, that is, to keep what is there or get rid of it, and they cannot do anything else. That is where the Government has failed but there is a way around it. If the Government put reform to the people, and only reform, then the choice of abolition would be gone. That is the problem the Government is left with. This is why a mechanism such as the Constitutional Convention would have been the perfect opportunity to tease out all of these issues properly and fairly.

The Minister of State referred to the Constitutional Convention. I sit on the convention and I value it. I believe it does great work. Those on the secretariat have done fantastic work to ensure that every issue set down by the Oireachtas under the remit of the convention has been given absolute and proper scrutiny. They have done a fantastic job. On every issue we have been given presentations from experts and political scientists, including on gay marriage. We have heard from people for and against. The participants of the Constitutional Convention were given all the information and could then make an informed decision. They made informed decisions on reducing the voting age to 17 years, on changes, minor though they are, to the electoral system, on same-sex marriage and on other important issues as well.

The point is that we did it right. We set up the Constitutional Convention. We asked people for their views. We allowed the experts to come in. We discussed properly and forensically all the issues that would be involved in those discussions. It was careful. Then, we ended up making sure-footed decisions. We know what we are doing and it is done on the basis of proper analysis. That is how we should have dealt with the issue of the Seanad. That is the point we are making. The Government's greatest failure is that it has not done that. By not doing that it has ended up rushing us into a situation whereby we cannot have a "preferendum" and we can only put one option to the people. The Minister of State referred to choice. That is not choice and it does not represent giving people a choice. The Government is only giving people the option of abolition. It is not giving people a real choice.

My genuine view is that the mood of the people at the moment is for radical reform of the House. Many people, including myself, believe it is elitist, undemocratic and unfit for purpose, but it is not the cause of all of our problems. People agree that reform of the Dáil is as important, if not more important, but they agree with reform. If an opinion poll was carried out asking people what they would go for if they were given the option of reform or abolition, I believe the Minister of State would be surprised that people would go for the option of reform and proper checks and balances in our system. Anyway, the people are not being given that choice. That is the great failure.

The Government is not being neutral. Senator Zappone make the same argument. The Minister of State made the point that the people will decide. I have constructed an argument outlining how the people will not be given the full opportunity to decide. They are been given one option, that is, to abolish what many see as a rotten borough, something that is undemocratic and elitist, but they are not being given the option of reform. The Government is not being neutral because it will campaign and canvas for a "Yes" vote and campaign for abolition. That is not being neutral and that is not neutrality. My party could end up in the same position. The Sinn Féin position is to abolish the Seanad in its current form. If that is the only proposition put to the people, then we may argue for people to vote "Yes" in the referendum, but the Ard Chomhairle will made that decision.