Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

It concerns the holding of the referendum. There will be other sections on which I can contribute, but many Senators referred to the issue on this section last night. I have examined the costs. The figure being used by the Attorney General was about €13.2 million. When it is just broken down to the cost of salaries and expenses, it comes to about €9.2 million. That figure was given to an Oireachtas committee, but it is not even €9.2 million. When one factors in the taxation that is paid by Members of the Seanad, at a conservative estimate, it is 30%. Some 30% of €9.2 million is about €2.75 million, so the actual net cost to the Exchequer would only be about €6.45 million.

That is what the saving will be by eliminating a Chamber of democracy that scrutinises legislation, delays the enactment of legislation and gives the people an opportunity to contact us on certain issues. If that is what is to be achieved, there are other and similar ways of going about saving €6.45 million. I will not go into them now because I will have an opportunity to do that when dealing with various sections. After what happened in the other House last night, the public may wish to save €6.54 million from that House rather than from this House. Reducing the number of Deputies in the other House would easily save €6.45 million because the cost of a Member of the other House is three or four times greater than the cost of a Member of this House. We would like to ask the members of the public today, by way of a referendum, which House they would like to keep and which House they would like to abolish. It would be interesting to see the result of an opinion poll or a referendum on that question. If we want to base the argument down to the costs, and I listened to what the Minister said last night, let us examine the true costs, or give every Member of this House an accurate breakdown of the figures because the figure of €20 million which is being talked up by the Taoiseach - €100 million over five years - does not stack up according to the Attorney General's figures which were provided to an Oireachtas committee when only the salaries and expenses are taken into account.

If the Irish people decide to abolish this House, so be it, but it is not something with which I would agree and I will be campaigning against that in the referendum. However, irrespective of what happens to us, the staff associated with this House will be, and should be, redeployed in any event and I would subscribe to that. The members of staff of Seanad Éireann, be in any of the offices or otherwise linked to this House, are second to none. They should be redeployed and they will be deployed, therefore, there will be no cost-saving in respect of staff. When the Taoiseach talks about a cost-saving, he is misleading the public and he is also misleading us. He should come into the House to explain himself on that issue before this Bill is passed, if it is to be passed. He should not be forcing the Minister of State, for whom I have the greatest respect, to come in and justify his actions. It is his actions and words that have been put out, but we need to have the opportunity to question that element of the argument during the course of this debate.

I hope the Taoiseach will oblige the Leader and membership of this House by coming in here to debate certain sections of legislation either on Committee Stage or on Report Stage next week. He should come in here and justify his remarks because he and he alone is the man who is walking the plank in terms of getting rid of this House, a House which was established and supported by a man, for whom I have great respect, Michael Collins. I will always have respect for what he did for the country, but the Taoiseach is showing disrespect for the work he did as a result of what he is trying to achieve here.