Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

-----are sent here. I acknowledge several Ministers, such as Deputies James Reilly and Alan Shatter, always come themselves to the greatest possible extent. Arguably they are among the busiest Ministers and it goes to show that if one wants something done one should give it to a busy person. I thank those Ministers for coming but they do not enjoy coming here because it holds up the legislative process. If we put ourselves in the position of a Secretary General we can imagine he or she would not want to go to the Seanad to listen to another six hours of debate and would rather have the legislation guillotined. This makes sense to them and they believe they are right.

I dread to think what will happen the country if there is no reformed Seanad. If any members of the media are covering this debate let the message go out loud and clear that none of us want an unreformed Seanad. As for the cost, €6.9 million is a lot of money but salaries for the Houses of the Oireachtas and expenses should be set by an independent external body which has nothing to do with any Members of the Houses, and probably should be benchmarked against international parliaments of countries of similar size and not businesses or entrepreneurial salaries.

The Seanad has had some big legislative successes over the years, such as with regard to equality legislation in the early 1990s, and there have been many examples since. The NAMA legislation was amended by the Seanad. The Seanad debated the legislation for 70 hours and could have spent another 70 hours trying to get it right. It is delinquent in the extreme as a political gimmick to effectively vandalise the Constitution. Real leadership is about having the courage to take on the vested interests and reform. No Taoiseach from any party has had the courage to do this and this one clearly does not either.

That is sad, although not for any of us. If it added credibility to a new Seanad, I would have no difficulty agreeing this second not to be a part of any future Seanad, not to run for it or whatever. However, as a tool for the people rather than one for the Cabinet of the day, the Seanad could be very useful if reformed. Before we throw the baby out with the bath water, we should attempt to implement some of the great reforms. There is the Mary O'Rourke document from the early 2000s and there are others. I would support a referendum if the choice was abolition or reform. If reform was chosen, which I believe it would be, the Constitutional Convention could consider whatever terms of reference it is given and could consult widely and we could press ahead with reform. However, without the political will of the Taoiseach of the day, that is an impossibility. It is not how it should be and it is fundamentally wrong that it is like that, but sadly that has been the practice over the years.

I know there are others who are very anxious to speak and that the Cathaoirleach is very anxious that I sit down. In the context of explaining my disappointment with section 1 and the abolition date, I had to put a number of other things on the record which clearly the Government feels are unrelated but nevertheless, given my experience however flawed it may be, I have resolved to do so. I hope other Members will try to add to that and continue where I left off.