Jimmy Harte (Labour) | Oireachtas source

-----credibility because the people will have backed it. Those who have been calling for its abolition will then be silenced. The referendum is a type of stress test. If the people opt to retain the Seanad because they believe it serves a purpose, it will require more powers. When speaking recently at a conference with a Dutch MP who had read about the proposed referendum on abolition of the Seanad, he told me that the Senate in Holland has powers and that the Dutch Parliament is generally afraid of it in terms of getting legislation through. Even though it meets for only four or five days a month, it has a great deal more power than Seanad Éireann.

When the Seanad was reconstructed in 1937 by Éamon de Valera, it should have been given more teeth. Subsequent Governments retained it as is because it suited democracy at the time. The public, in voting for retention of the Seanad, may require that it be given more powers, which will give them more say than they currently have, and that it take cognisance of public opinion on particular issues such as those currently being discussed. Often, the Seanad serves only as a rubber stamp on legislation already discussed in the Lower House. The banks now have to be more careful when lending money because there will be consequences if people cannot repay. It is important that if the Lower House passes legislation, the public can, through this House, put pressure on Government to amend it. While many good Bills have gone through the Seanad and to which many amendments were tabled, regardless of what the Seanad does, it cannot prevent legislation being enacted.

The Senate in Australia has immense powers. It runs more or less two-track with the Parliament. It is a system on which I would like the Seanad to be modelled. The thinking in Government circles is that there is no point to having two Houses within one democracy. We need a second opinion on this issue. There have been many militant Labour Governments in the UK but none of them has abolished the Lords system, which when compared with the Seanad is totally undemocratic. While the Lords system was pared down by the Labour Party, it remains an appointed body that is respected by the English public. I have not heard much talk in the UK about abolishing the House of Lords for any reason, financial or democratic. Where there is democracy, this must be questioned. The House of Lords is an important part of the English system. People generally look to it for the real opinion on matters of law. The former MP, John Prescott, is a member of the House of Lords. Many of the people who have been through that system use that experience when offering an opinion on legislation.

It is constantly said that the Seanad is a retirement home for some politicians and a waiting home for those wishing to get elected to the Dáil. Those who retire from the Lower House and are then elected to this House bring great experience with them. They are often not under the extreme pressure they were under when they were a Deputy, and they can pick a particular subject or area on which they can concentrate. The public will decide in October what type of Seanad or second Chamber is required in this country and will be of benefit not only to political parties but to the people. I do not fully support the current structure of the Seanad. I believe all Members would be happy if the Whip was loosened. While many Members on the Government side support some of the proposals put forward by the Opposition side, they are unable to support them because of the Whip system.

Turnout for the 1979 referendum was below 29%. I imagine turnout this time round will be about the same. This means only 25% to 35% of the population will engage on the issue. Most people in this country do not really care about the Seanad. Those who are talking about it are political parties and pressure groups. People in legal circles appear to want a more elite Seanad than currently exists. I resent the statement that Members of a reformed Seanad should be paid €10,000 per annum. This might suit retired professionals with money, but people from Sligo, Cavan, Cork and so on cannot afford to take on membership of the Seanad as a hobby. It might be a nice pastime for wealthy people. In my view, it would be a glorified Law Library. That is not what the public wants.

I ask that when the people make their decision, they do so based on their needs, including more influence over what is going on in the country at this time. While many U-turns are made for good reasons, this could in future be done by the Seanad in terms of taking the Government out of a hole. Ministers are often castigated for making U-turns. If the threat came from this House that issues would not be agreed, this would begin in the Lower House. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, will agree that not all legislation that goes through the Lower House is perfect. If the Seanad is abolished, there will be greater onus on the Lower House to scrutinise legislation. I do not believe a Minister or Minister of State has the time or foresight to do this because of the frequent urgency of getting legislation through.

The public will decide whether the Seanad is to be retained. All Governments are guilty of not reforming the Seanad. While the 1979 referendum was passed by the people, the then Government said the decision was irrelevant and gave the two fingers to the people. If this referendum is passed, the Government will be quick to implement its decision. The 1979 referendum was just as important as the referendum on the abolition of the Seanad, but both results will be treated differently. I ask that the Minister of State consider this and offer his view on the reason the 1979 referendum decision has never been implemented. Is it possible to implement it at this stage?