David Cullinane (Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

-----to make our points on the sections on Committee Stage by speaking to the sections. I am sure at some point that the Leas-Chathaoirleach will pull me up and say that issues I am raising are not relevant to the section, but to what sections will they be relevant? We need to be given an opportunity to explore properly and tease out in detail all the issues we raised on Second Stage in general terms, but that opportunity is not even being given to us because all we can do is again make general statements in respect of the sections. If we try to deal with specifics that are not exactly relevant to the section, the Leas-Chathaoirleach will pull us up on that. That is regrettable. We should have been able to debate the amendments which have been tabled. I do not accept some of the reasons the amendments were ruled out of order but that has been ruled on.

Abolition day is not something to be proud of. It is a sham, a fraud and a failure. In reality, it is an acceptance of failure that the political establishment has failed to reform the Seanad. The Government was very quick to bring forward legislation to abolish the Seanad. That is what this is, a Bill to abolish the Seanad. Fianna Fáil has to take responsibility as well as Labour and Fine Gael, having been in government numerous times during the past 30 or 40 years, as all parties had numerous opportunities to bring forward reform Bills and each and every Government failed to do so. The failure to reform the Seanad has nothing to do with the people inside or outside this Chamber but everything to do with the political establishment which failed in its job to reform the Seanad.

Even when the people had their say about increasing the franchise for university graduates, that small piece of reform was not put in place by way of legislation. We should not be discussing abolition day but discussing reform not only of the Seanad but also of Dáil. One thing on which I think we can all agree, even those who have put forward views to reform the Seanad, is that this House in its current form needs to be reformed. We have two excellent Bills that were agreed on Second Stage but they have been left hanging. We have the abolition Bill, the one being discussed, but we are not allowed to discuss the reform Bills on Committee Stage of this Bill. We are not even allowed to discuss reform and are not being given the opportunity to do so, and neither are the people.

I believe the Government made a mistake in rushing to abolish the Seanad and I said that during my contribution on Second Stage. I believe it was a genuine mistake, not because I believe we can stand over this House in its current form but because I believe in reform and not only reform of the Seanad but reform of the Dail and of local government, and we are not getting that. We are not getting any reform of local government or reform of the Dail. All we are getting is abolition of the Seanad.

I cannot understand why the Constitutional Convention was not given the opportunity to discuss reform. It could very well have said, had it been given the opportunity, that it did not believe in a bicameral system, a second chamber, and that rather it believed a single robust chamber with proper checks and balances would be the best thing for this State. It may well have decided that but it was not given the opportunity I know for certain that if the delegates to the Constitutional Convention were to have put forward a proposition that an arm of the Oireachtas be severed, abolished, cut off, done away with - all those the terms Senator Zappone gave, they would not have recommended that in any seriousness had they not also spelled out what would come in its place and how we would reform the Dáil. In fairness, some proposals have been put forward by the Government but they are only cosmetic changes and will not bring about the checks and balances we need.

We have two dysfunctional Chambers, the Dáil and the Seanad, and if we abolish the Seanad, we will be left with one dysfunctional Chamber. We will have fewer Deputies and the committee system will not work with fewer Deputies and no Senators. It will fall apart and while it may not collapse, it certainly will not be effective. It will not do its job. The committees will not be fit for purpose, and for that reason also, I will oppose this section and abolition day.

For me, the core principles that should underpin political reform are democracy, accountability, representativeness and checks and balances. No one could argue that this House is democratic. I certainly would not argue that it is. It is undemocratic, unrepresentative and elitist and it needs to be reformed, but abolishing the Seanad will not improve democracy. It will not do anything to improve the situation. It may get rid of one dysfunctional chamber but where will the improvements be? How will that improve democracy? I would challenge the Minister of State and the Government to point out how abolishing the Seanad will improve democracy. How will abolition day, which is what this section is about, improve accountability in this State? How will abolishing one arm of the Oireachtas without looking at reform improve accountability? We know what happened in the banking sector. There is no abolition day for what the bankers did, for the bankers in this country or for the lack of regulation, but there is an abolition day for one arm of the Oireachtas which is not responsible, despite the contention the Taoiseach, for the problems this country is in. What will abolition day do for representativeness in the Oireachtas?

The Government made a great play about wanting to improve access to Oireachtas for women, and I accept that and support all the proposals it brought forward in regard to quotas. However, if we have no Seanad, 60 Senators will be gone and we will have fewer Deputies. How will that be good for getting women into the Oireachtas? One of the Government's proposals, which it has talked about, is four-day week, and perhaps five-day week, sittings. How in God's name will that be good for working mothers who live in Donegal, Galway or Waterford who will be asked to sit in the Dáil four days a week in Dublin away from their families? These are the kind of cosmetic rushed changes we will get because the Government has not properly thought out abolition day.