Paddy Burke (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

For the information of Senators, under Standing Order 119, the question to be put to the House on amendment No. 1, as proposed by Senator Feargal Quinn, is as follows: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question". If the question is carried, Standing Order 119 also provides that the Bill shall forthwith be declared to have been read a Second Time.

Then we would really be talking about saving money. It will it be shifting the cost of €8.5 million from the Seanad to the committees, with less democracy. I do not have the answer. Participative democracy must be encouraged as well as the participative budgetary process. Hopefully this work is progressing. I have confidence in the Taoiseach in this regard. This has not been a policy of any previous Government and it is time for a change.

Some years ago while in Germany I attended a local district authority meeting to observe local democracy in action. The people participated in the budgetary process for their local area. Previous Governments had plenty of opportunities for reform. Ten reports were published and nothing was done. They sat on the fence but now the Opposition is getting into action. However, everyone is to blame. This Government has only been in power for two years during which time there has been massive change and I look forward to more. We sat on the fence for so long but we are ready to press the "Exit" button now if the people wish it. They must make an informed choice. At least the Taoiseach is doing something, even if we do not particularly like it. We knew it was coming when we signed on the dotted line.

I ask why reform of the Dáil must wait. Why not carry out the reforms promised by the Taoiseach? I suggest a simple change to Standing Orders of the Dáil to provide for advance scrutiny of intended legislation, committee chairmanships and revised procedures. As an avid attendee of committees of which I am a member I am not enamoured with the committee system as it stands. It needs radical reform. Participation is minimal and input is poor. Why not try to reform and strengthen the committee system before the Seanad is abolished? We have only a couple of weeks and I do not think that will be done.

The current Dáil scrutiny of EU legislation in the post-Lisbon EU legislative process is virtually non-existent. I do not believe that Members of the Dáil have any intention of really doing that work. It will not happen in the future for exactly the same reason that it is not happening now because it will not help a Deputy to be re-elected, as many Senators have said. Senator Maurice Cummins, the Leader of the House, attempted to address this issue but it is not possible to achieve if our hands are tied behind our backs.

At least the Seanad offers an opportunity to contribute to political life to those other than politicians, such as from the universities and other institutions and this also offers voting opportunities to people who are abroad. The Whip system is not ideal but I ask if anything could be put through the House without that system.

Finland, with a similar population to Ireland, has been referred to as an example of a unicameral system. However, there is a significant difference between Ireland and Finland. The independence of individual parliamentarians is constitutionally guaranteed in Finland. The Finnish Parliament also has an opt-out conscience clause. When comparing democracies and the bicameral and unicameral systems, like should be compared with like, because everything matters in democracy. If we give away one, we should ensure that we retain the other. I trust the people that they will make an informed choice and that they will be provided with information.

If the Seanad is abolished, issues to be dealt with will include: Article 36 of the Constitution which deals with the removal of judges - and I am sure they will have something to say about that; the Presidential Commission; Article 27 which provides for a petition to refer Bills of national importance to the people; Article 28-----