Jimmy Harte (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I have no problem with the holding of a referendum as promised in the programme for Government, but a considerable number of people are cynical about politics. If a referendum was held on abolishing all tiers of Government, at least 25% of voters would vote "Yes" because the politics we are trying to promote is being destroyed from within. I will abide by the people's decision, however, whatever it may be.

Senator Cullinane interrupted my speech and has now left the Chamber. He suggested that the Government has not introduced reform and he is opposed to the abolition of town and county councils. I hate to point out the obvious but the number of county councils in Northern Ireland has been cut from 26 to 11. Sinn Féin and the DUP wanted to reduce the number further to seven, with the intention that one side of the River Bann would be controlled by Sinn Féin and the other by the DUP, with Belfast up for grabs. Sinn Féin's policy across the Border calls for the restructuring of local government. I do not accept the Senator's argument that the Government is destroying councils. I was a town councillor for 17 years. They play a particular beneficial role.

The new district councils will give more power to representatives in areas like Letterkenny, which is an urban and rural mix. Councillors will come from both areas. Until now I always felt that the town council was pulling against the county council and vice versa, so that is a positive thing.

The first speech I made in the Seanad contained a request that we go around the country and have a Senate in Kerry, Donegal, Galway and Cork, so that the public might recognise that the Senate does a lot of legislative work. The record is there but it is not emphasised in the press and people do not hear about the work that is done in here. I do not know if we can still take a few sections of the Seanad out of this building and let the people in the regions decide on the benefits of the Seanad. It would be a good idea to raise its profile because as soon as the referendum takes place and if the result is to abolish it, then there is no going back. In ten or 15 years, the next generation might say that it was a hasty move by this Government to get rid of an arm of democracy that we might need.

I was in Bucharest last week at the conference against human trafficking. I spoke to a Dutch MP who told me that their Senate, which does not meet as often as our own, is very important to the Dutch people and that the Senate is always there to take on the Government in certain types of legislation. The role of the Seanad should not just be to rubber stamp legislation, but to make sure that TDs in the Dáil would pass legislation mindful of the fact that the Senate next door may have a different view. The public could reflect that view through the Senators because at the moment they feel that everything is being pushed through without a second opinion. As Senator O'Brien said, what the Minister is saying probably does not reflect what he is thinking about the abolition of the Senate. He is smiling at me now.