Terry Brennan (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

This is a very difficult Bill to deal with for all of us, for the Government, the Opposition and Independents. As the Leader, Senator Cummins, stated here last week, the Taoiseach pointed out in his statement to the House that countless reports on Seanad reform are gathering dust or have been consigned to the scrap heap by successive governments.

As has been mentioned, hundreds of amendments to legislation have been initiated in this House by the current Seanad. Many of these amendments have been accepted by the Lower House, which is testimony to the contribution made by Members of this Seanad to the legislative process. Some ten different reforms in the Seanad have been completed over the years, but several governments have not felt it important or worthwhile to reform this House. The Taoiseach himself sat around the Cabinet table in the past and obviously did not promote the implementation of any of the proposed reforms. However, he is now leading the charge for the total abolition of the Seanad.

Committees, outsiders and unelected individuals will have all the answers, but I am not so sure that is right. I do not believe it is. There appears to be expertise from all walks of life, from people who are unelected and who have no responsibility to the people of Ireland, friends of the Taoiseach of the day. In time to come, this proposal will lead to a dictatorship in this country. I honestly believe this. How sure can we be that outside experts have all the answers on reform? The Taoiseach has stated that he intends to strengthen the existing committee system. From my experience of this system to date, people hop in and out of the committees. While they may sign in, many of them do not contribute to the committees. If the current committee system is an example of what we will have, I fear for the future.

A cost benefit analysis of the establishment of a strengthened committee system should be completed in advance of the referendum. Before they have their say, the people of Ireland should be made aware of the anticipated cost of these committees. We do not know how many committees will be set up, what they will cost or whether they will cost more than the Seanad. The issue of Seanad costs has been mentioned by many Senators. The costs mentioned vary from €3.9 million to €100 million. The Taoiseach has stated that the likely saving will be from €20 million to €50 million. If he had said from €20 million to €25 million, the figures might seem valid, but he said from €20 million to €50 million.

There are varied opinions on the cost of the Seanad. Some of the figures mentioned are €3.9 million, €4.1 million, €6 million, €7 million and €8 million. I have done my own cost benefit analysis and I believe that if a Senator is earning €65,000 a year and he is taking home €35,000, the cost to the State is only €35,000, not €65,000. I see the saving to be made as something in the order of €6 million to €7 million. I have looked at this in some detail. If the Seanad is abolished, nobody working in the House will lose his or her job, apart from the 60 Senators. I hope that none of the staff or experts working here lose theirs. Realistically, the Seanad costs €7 million per annum, but to make allowances I will say it costs €10 million. It does not cost that, but that is a more realistic figure than the figure suggested by the Taoiseach, which was between €20 million and €50 million.

If it is the case that the Seanad costs €10 million gross and we have 1.7 million taxpayers paying tax, and if we divide the €10 million by 1.7 million, we end up dividing 100 by 17, making the cost of the Seanad €6 per taxpayer per annum. I ask myself whether that is value for money. Based on my experience here for just over two years and on the contributions made-----