Sean Barrett (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State. I wish to dispute the statement by Lord Edward Fitzgerald that Leinster House does not inspire the greatest ideas - it most certainly does. He lived in Carton House where the Minister of State and I celebrated the long service of our local Deputy. I pass Carton House every day but I find Leinster House a most interesting, refreshing and stimulating place. If the Taoiseach came into this House more often, he might actually feel the same way.

It is said it is just a talking shop. Let me quote from Isaac Butt at the College Historical Society in TCD, which was the first debating society in the world. He stated said that:

From this Society great things will be produced; we will draw around us the youthful talent of our country, and train them in that power which may enable them to benefit her. The glory of days gone shall return with more than pristine splendour.....I do believe that the time will come when faction shall flee away and dissension shall be forgotten; when Ireland's orators and Ireland's statesmen shall seek only their country's good; when laws shall be respected and yet liberty maintained.

It is good we discuss things here. It is a brilliant debating Chamber with the best Order of Business in town, which I am sorry the Minister of State is not able to attend. We have brought forward Bills, two of which we are discussing with the Minister of State's Department. Yesterday another Minister sent me a draft Bill seeking my views on it. The Taoiseach said we should sit on one of his committee's. For years I sat on the National Economic and Social Council where I tried to raise issues such as banking, the collapse in the public finances and so on, and I will give the Minister of State the correspondence in that regard. In this House, the Leader and the Cathaoirleach listen and we get to debate issues. Relying on the committee system is no substitute. Deputy John O'Mahony is the Chairman of the committee on which I sit. One State company said it did not feel like turning up and asked for another four weeks while another asked if we could send it the list of questions in advance so that it could prepare. That is not democracy.

Part of the problem is referred to in a press release today from one of our committees. The press release stated: "Oireachtas and Northern Ireland Assembly committees resolve to tackle inadvertent roaming charges." This is inadvertent roaming by the Taoiseach. He does not know what he is doing and he has not thought it out properly. The kindest thing I can say about him is that he is guilty of inadvertent roaming.

The Taoiseach did not refer to the universities or to Northern Ireland yesterday. I am the 71st person to represent Trinity College in Parliament since 1603. We have served under 124 Lord High Treasurers, which I gather were before Prime Ministers, 58 British Prime Ministers and 12 Taoisigh but only one of them has tried to get rid of us. All the Trinity College voters will be voting against the Government on this. We have served in Parliaments in College Green, Westminster and here splendidly, and I include former Senator Mary Robinson, Senator David Norris and former Senator, the late Trevor West.

When I was in Enniskillen recently, the dean in the cathedral there told me that the Sunday after the Remembrance Sunday bombing - there had been funerals all week in Fermanagh - when he went into the cathedral, the late Senator Trevor West and the late Gerry Fitt, a Member of the House of Lords, were in the front row. He said that did so much to bind up the wounds. We have been doing that all the time in our constituency. This inadvertently roaming Taoiseach deprives my constituents in Finaghy, Belfast, Portstewart, Cullyhanna, Lurgan, Cultra, Ballyclare, Lisburn, Castlerock, Maghera and Rathfriland of votes because the Taoiseach is intervening to stop Northern Ireland people voting in the TCD constituency. They do not have a vote in the referendum to abolish their voting rights.

Did the Taoiseach think of Northern Ireland? Why did he not mention it yesterday? I am proud of the connections between TCD and our northern voters. A man called "Mervyn" walks on 12 July but is proud of his Irish passport and of his vote here. We invited the Orange Order to the House. I thought we were making progress. Why is the Taoiseach depriving northerners of a vote in my constituency? It is a disgrace. I will campaign throughout Northern Ireland with the Unionist parties and Sinn Féin, which have done a splendid job promoting democracy. Here is a man demolishing a House of Parliament but Sinn Féin and the Unionist parties have erected one. It is splendid that they have done so and I commend them warmly for so doing.

Grattan's Parliament was mentioned earlier. I think bribes of £40,000 were paid. It was sold to the bank for £50,000 and Dublin Castle made a profit. This time we are demolishing a House of Parliament to pay bank debts of €64 billion. History is repeating itself and I stand by Henry Grattan, to whom Senator Mooney referred.

It was said this proposal is in Fine Gael's election manifesto but I will tell the Minister of State what is in the programme for Government. It states: "We will reduce the size of the Department of An Taoiseach, transforming it in the equivalent of a Cabinet office that oversees the delivery of a new Programme for Government." When the Taoiseach came into office, there were 187 people in his Department but there are now 200 - nearly three times the number of Senators - whose average pay is in excess of that of a Senator. In addition to visiting this House the odd time, the Taoiseach should run his Department and account for it. Why has he allowed a contradiction?

The programme for Government committed to reducing the size of the Department of An Taoiseach to a small Cabinet office. When the Constitution was framed in 1937, there were 21 people in that Department but he has increased it to 200. Very wisely, the Constitution limited the number of Senators to 60. We did not account for the vast explosion in public expenditure but the Taoiseach's Department did. It is now ten times bigger than when the late Éamon de Valera was in it. What were the people in the Department doing then? They were keeping Ireland out of World War II, writing a Constitution, which I admire greatly, and getting the treaty ports back. The Taoiseach should explain why he has recruited more people at higher pay than Senators in direct contradiction to the programme for Government. It is not credible to me to say he is implementing his programme for Government.

I refer to the €65,621 paid to Senators. The average pay in the Taoiseach's Department is approximately 7% higher, at €65,950. This bloated Department, which had 20 people when the Constitution was written, now has people earning €65,950. The number of Members in the Seanad, which the Taoiseach is trying to abolish, has stayed at 60, each earning €65,621.

I refer to the Book of Estimates, which the Minister of State brings to the House and, in particular, to the quango section. Fine Gael promised to abolish quangos but it never happened. The average pay in the Irish Film Board is €96,800. The average pay in the Citizens Information Board - work which Senators do - is €72,100. The average pay in the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, which we will discuss next week, is €69,700. The average pay in the Family Support Agency, around which Senators do much work, is €73,500. We should compare these rates of pay to the €65,621 paid to Senators.

The Taoiseach is impressed by New Zealand, Denmark and Sweden. On average, it is between 45 and 50 years since their second chambers were abolished. This is sort of unicameralism for slow learners. When I go to New Zealand, I see very impressive rugby and a most impressive agriculture sector. If I go to Sweden and Denmark, I see very impressive people who read the small print about the euro and did not join. It is a pity we did not do that. The Taoiseach is impressed by the wrong things in Denmark, Sweden and New Zealand when he becomes an advocate of unicameralism. Our briefing states that of 161 public submissions to the Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform in 2004, none recommended the abolition of the Seanad. This is the real definition of a solo run if ever there was one.

Between 1997 to 2000 the number of senior civil servants grew by 82% while the number of civil servants, as a whole, grew by 27%. There was a managerial growth in spending which the Government has not tackled but the number of Senators has stayed at 60. That is a very useful protection.

The antagonism towards Northern Ireland contrasts with what Mr. Blair's Government did in 2003. He renewed the free transfer of every book published in the United Kingdom to the library in Trinity College Dublin so that the citizens of this country could avail of it. Many other universities in the United Kingdom wanted that concession. Mr. Blair's friendliness towards this country must be contrasted most unfavourably with the hostility of the Taoiseach towards my constituents in Northern Ireland.

Those who sit on the other side should oppose this Bill. We have already spent €2.1 million in preparing the Bill according to the Book of Estimates, and it will cost another €21 million to have a referendum according to the Minister for Finance. The pay of Senators comes to €3.9 million per year. I do not know if anyone else will be fired, other people will be doing the work, so about half that money comes back in tax. Even as a purely economic proposition, this is silly.

On the abolition of university seats, if we are not wanted here, we will find plenty of things to do. That contrasts with what the Wright report found on the Department of Finance, that 39 out 542 staff had qualifications in economics at masters level or above. That is 7%. My university rates eighth in Europe in terms of research and 49th in the world, so it is fine if we are not wanted. Perhaps the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny is right and all the other Prime Ministers in Britain and previous Taoisigh were wrong but we have served this country splendidly.

I ask those opposite not to be Jesuitical and say that the Bill should pass so the people can decide; we have already committed €23 million which could be used for any other purpose. Do not indulge the Taoiseach. The statues of two people stand outside the front gates of Trinity College. One of them, Oliver Goldsmith, said parliaments do not intervene, rich men make the laws. Rich men are certainly advocating this one. The other, Edmund Burke, said for tyranny to prevail, all we need is for good men to do nothing. Those on the opposite side of the House should not do nothing, they should state their opposition. I commend Deputies Joanna Tuffy, Bernard Durkan, Arthur Spring and all the wonderful Deputies who support us. The Government side should put its opposition where it counts and not let this run. I came into this Seanad at a time when the country was bankrupt to help as best I could. I fear this is a case where the might of the Government and all its PR machine will prevail over democracy.

There is a crisis here similar to that when John Kells Ingram wrote about 1798:

They rose in dark and evil days
To right their native land;
They kindled here a living blaze
That nothing shall withstand.
Alas! that might can vanquish Right -
They fell and passed away;
But true men, like you men,
Are plenty here today.

Do not let might conquer right on this one ladies and gentlemen. We must oppose this Bill.