Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the Senators who contributed to the debate in such detail and with such knowledge regarding the way social welfare impacts on a huge number of people in our population.

To deal with Senator Ó Domhnaill's contribution, the fundamental problem is that in the aftermath of his Government's disastrous bank guarantee over 250,000 jobs were lost in this country in three short years. Everybody, including the Senators opposite, deeply regrets that but what we have to do is get people back to work because this year the estimated spend is €20.3 billion. That is not a small amount of money, as has been said.

It represents approximately 38% of total Government spending.

I make the point with regard to social welfare that the staff and deciding officers in law make their decisions. I have no legal power and would not wish to exercise any power to direct staff to make decisions. It is unfair to imply that staff are getting some kind of direction from somewhere to refuse decisions. The positive point about social welfare is that it is based on law. Members will be aware that one problem with Health Service Executive schemes, for instance, is that by and large they simply are based on administration and one therefore has huge complaints about the unfairness with which some people are treated compared with others. When one bases a scheme in law, part of the problem obviously may be the application of the law is therefore more rigid, but it is based on law with deciding officers having the power in law to make decisions. There are no instructions to deciding officers and were proof required on the allegations the Senator is making, since areas like disability, for instance, have transferred over to the Department of Social Protection, the figures show there have been huge increases in the number of people qualifying.

As for this Bill, I am glad a number of Members referred to and welcomed the developments regarding both the part-time firefighters and the retained fire service. As Senator Brennan observed, it is true the Department is subsidising the retained fire service throughout the country. One issue about which one must think in respect of social welfare is that employment patterns are changing in that many employers increasingly only offer minimum hours contracts. This certainly is true in particular of some of the larger retail centres and applies in particular to young people and women. The consequence is people may be getting two to three days of work and are claiming two to three days of social welfare benefits. This is one way in which the social welfare system is subsidising a great deal of employment activity, for which it often does not get very much recognition. However, it constitutes a direct subsidy to many employers, particularly some of the very large supermarket chains.

I also take the point raised by Senators Mullins and Brennan about ATMs running dry in towns such as Ballinasloe and Carlingford. The Government pay the banks handsome fees to process electronic business for social welfare clients or customers and it is important they make cash services available. Almost everyone knows that for someone who is on a small income, and someone whose income is based exclusively on social welfare payments is on a small income, it is much better to be able to manage that income on a cash basis rather than with any kind of credit or debit card. I certainly will make this point to the banks because, as Members are aware, the country has given its all for the banks of this country and requires some services from them in return for everything that all the ordinary citizens have done for them.

The subject of consultants' PRSI was mentioned by a number of Members and the issue is that, as Senator Moloney noted, there was a ceiling on the charge to PRSI on earnings. Consequently, a person on a consultant contract of more than €200,000 would have reached that ceiling. However, on foot of the abolition of the ceiling from PRSI, for the reason of a loophole in the law they were not charged to PRSI on their other income. In the case of some consultants with big private practices as well as a public practice, the amounts involved from their private income will produce a small amount for the social welfare system. Certainly, the VHI statistics indicate that more than 300 consultants earn at least €200,000 a year from private earnings, more in the case of quite a number of them.

There is a really important issue regarding the changes to the rules mentioned by a number of Members about providing greater sanctions for those who refuse to co-operate with regard to education, training and employment training opportunities. By and large in Ireland, people support the unwritten social contract that a good, strong system of social protection is needed and that one contributes and pays while one is working. However, taxpayers who contribute by paying PAYE and PRSI, many of whom are on small wages, get a bit fed up when they see people they know personally in the social welfare system who are not honouring their side of the social contract, which is to make themselves work-ready and available for work in the context of the many supports the Department has made available to them. Senator Moloney spoke of the recent conversion of the offices in Killarney to the new Intreo system. It really is positive and in a point referenced by many Senators, I am convinced it will assist in the fight against fraud.

The new arrangements with regard to biometric photographs and electronic signatures mean we will have rolled out this system. Thus far, we have rolled out approximately 250,000 personal services cards to all new entrants into the social welfare system. Anyone coming into Ireland, anyone who signs on as a new jobseeker and anyone who registers for a PPS number is going to the new system, and already it is bearing fruit. For instance, if one's photograph comes up and one has been signing on in Carrick-on-Shannon but it appears as though one also has been appearing in the office in Letterkenny, the software will highlight this and will signal that this appears to be the same person. I do not suggest that Senators Ó Domhnaill and Mooney look like each other in any way-----