Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The Fianna Fáil group would like to support this Bill but, today, we will be reserving our position on it. In this regard, I will be putting a few queries to the Minister.

As the party that helped negotiate the original Croke Park deal, Fianna Fáil is prepared to play its part in and support the reform of the public sector to ensure it is more flexible, while valuing its work and making it work in even more efficient ways. We support redeployment and making the staff resources as flexible as possible to change in response to the needs that arise as the years go by, but I have a few questions for the Minister in this regard.

The Minister has been careful not to frame the legislation in terms of the Haddington Road agreement. My overarching concern is whether this is going beyond Haddington Road and whether it is part of a wider reform agenda of the Government, and I suppose the question comes down to how that relates to the workers. Have the unions been consulted specifically on this legislation because I have not heard much about it in the media?

Redeployment is dealt with in the Haddington Road agreement, which contains quite a considerable number of paragraphs about it. However, there is a procedure within the aforementioned agreement for redeployment, which refers to looking for volunteers for redeployment before one starts to get into a mandatory situation. As far as I can discern, this is not reflected in the legislation and it is not a factor that must be taken into account legally. The other general point I wish to raise is that the redeployer, that is, the Public Appointments Service, must take into account a number of items when it decides to redeploy, one of which is sectoral agreements into which the Government has entered. The Bill refers to the "terms of any policy for the time being of the Minister, or collective agreement negotiated with any recognised trade union or staff association" and I assume the Haddington Road agreement is such a thing. What in practice does the Minister envisage over the years? Will this be just one item that is taken into account or is this what actually will decide how things operate?

I have another major concern about a definition in the Bill and I seek some comfort from the Minister on this point. As I stated, Fianna Fáil will be reserving its position on the Bill today and certainly will not object to it today. However, I will listen to what the Minister has to say and my party will consult further in this regard. A definition of basic pay has been brought into the principal legislation via section 6 of the Bill, which states:

'basic pay' means, in relation to the person the subject of the designation concerned, the amount of the person's pay or salary, by virtue of the position held in the public service body, by the person immediately before the redeployment day, other than amounts in respect of--(i) specific work or a specific duty undertaken,
(ii) unsocial or atypical hours worked,
(iii) shift work,
(iv) piece work, or
(v) overtime.

I do not know whether there is such a definition of basic pay in the statute because were a definition along those lines to be put in, which did not take account of the normal allowances, for example, of nurses, which form part of their core pay, that would be different to what public sector staff members themselves consider to be their core or basic pay. The Minister might recall that in the original Croke Park II talks, before they became the Haddington Road proposals, the nurses voted overwhelmingly against the Croke Park II provisions. I believe it was 95% to zero, precisely because of this kind of thing, that is, it was perceived to be an attack on the allowances that people outside the system and who are not obliged to work overnight or on Sundays perceive as some kind of bonus. I am afraid that were this to be put into statute, Members would be setting a new standard for pay, which in practice might work out as reducing pay in the long term. Moreover, it might not take into account, as does the Haddington Road agreement, the type of work that actually is done by many in the public sector at a time when many of us are asleep. In my own case and that of many other families, while I am asleep at home someone else is working as an nurse overnight.

I also am concerned about the practical implications of that definition. Leaving aside overtime, which pertains to additional work, I refer to someone who is redeployed and for whom a large part of his or her salary might comprise allowances for Sunday work. People begin to have an expectation that they will work two Sundays per month and so on and it all becomes part of the ordinary wages coming into those families and, in practice, is not perceived to be a bonus. This was the reason the nurses and a number of other unions voted overwhelmingly against the Croke Park II proposals. Given the previous experience with the 10,000 staff to whom the Minister referred, how will this work in practice? For example, can a nurse or fire fighter be taken out of his or her job - if for some reason the job is no longer required - and be put into a Civil Service job with a consequential loss of a considerable amount of pay if that person's actual pay as it was is not being taken into account? It is unfortunate that this definition is being included in the legislation. If the Minister tells me it already is in place I will accept that. While I do not believe it appears anywhere in legislation, I will listen to the Minister's response. It could send out a signal that this work is not valued and could inflame passions again, based on what happened in respect of the Croke Park II agreement. Moreover, I do not know whether it is necessary, when one considers the Haddington Road proposals, in which some allowances were cut but others that were extremely important to staff members and reflected the realities of the work were retained.

I reiterate that Fianna Fáil supports and wishes to encourage the Minister in his reform efforts. However, my party wishes to ensure that everyone is being treated fairly and I have raised some questions to which Fianna Fáil seeks answers from the Minister. My party may table amendments on Committee Stage but despite what the Minister said, this does not appear to be a highly technical Bill. I do not agree with the Minister's suggestion that this is a technical Bill, as it could be quite significant for many people. Therefore, it is important that Members tease out precisely what is happening and get the profile for it, if it goes beyond the Haddington Road proposals. While Fianna Fáil wishes to support this Bill, I ask the Minister to respond to the concerns I have outlined in due course.