Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

We are now ranging far and wide and heading down the prism route in the context of the United States. I will come back to that in a moment but I will first deal with the more direct and simpler query raised by Senator Wilson. I refer the Senator to section 28 (1), which states: "The functions of the Minister under this Part may be performed by such officer of the Minister, not below the rank of Assistant Secretary, as the Minister may nominate for that purpose". If the Minister was to be abroad on business and uncontactable for some reason, a nominee of the Minister could deal with that issue.

I wish to address the later question that arose. Section 21 provides clearly that an application for an authorisation must be made in the first instance in writing - I emphasise that stipulation, but there is an exception to it which I will come to - by a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of assistant commissioner. I will not be getting a direct telephone call from some foreign intelligence agency asking if I could arrange for the mobile telephone system to be switched off. Naturally, there is contact and it is altogether important that there is contact between the Garda Síochána and the PSNI and between the Garda Síochána and our counterpart European police forces. There is a great deal of co-operation and work in dealing with counter-terrorism, the drugs issue, human trafficking and international fraud. There are a range of issues in respect of which the Garda engages and co-operates with police forces not only in Europe but in other parts of the globe when certain issues arise. However, for this power to be invoked it would have to be on foot of a request made by an assistant commissioner to me and I must be satisfied that the conditions referred to in section 20 are met. This means I would have to be furnished with information by the assistant commissioner which indicated that those conditions were met.

There is an exception to the requirement for the assistant commissioner's application to be in writing. Section 21(5) provides that a notification "may, if the Minister considers that the case is one of exceptional urgency, be given orally provided that the notification shall be confirmed in writing as soon as practicable". If an assistant commissioner made contact with me and explained to me orally the background to a matter and stated that he was concerned that there could be an explosive incident and that lives could be lost in five minutes' time and that he urgently needed an order or direction to close down the mobile telephone system, I would not ask him to send me a note about it and let him know that I would think about it. There must be some degree of common sense in these things and the legislation is designed to deal with those eventualities.

On the general issue, I am mindful, as the Minister for Justice and Equality and Minister for Defence, of the serious security issues that every state must deal with. I am especially conscious of the position of states which are particularly exposed to or threatened by terrorism with regularity. The United States is a country regularly at the receiving end of threats of terrorist atrocities. It suffered a major terrorist atrocity, the events of 11 September 2001, but they are not the only events that have happened in the United States that have resulted in the tragic loss of life. Naturally, I understand that a state such as the United States must have in place security arrangements to provide protection for its citizens which are reasonable and proportionate and which ensure the protection of life where that is possible.

They must try to ensure that those who pose a threat may be identified, but I emphasise the words "reasonable" and "proportionate". I would have concerns about some of what has been disclosed in relation to the level of surveillance that is being conducted as, in terms of the Irish Presidency of the European Union, I would have concerns, in the context of chairing the meetings of European Justice and Home Affairs Ministers, that the privacy of European citizens is not violated in circumstances that are inappropriate.

Unfortunately, I do not believe, from events we have seen in Europe, that we can take the view that in Europe we do not have individuals who are prepared to engage in terrorist activities and who pose a threat to life and limb. We saw the barbaric incident only a few days ago in London when two individuals were prepared, in open daylight, to murder in the most barbaric way a young drummer in the British Army.

States must take measures that are necessary but, clearly, what has been revealed is an understandable cause of concern. I have no information to indicate that, as the Senator put it, servers in this country are being infiltrated by American intelligence surveillance to identify who is sending e-mails to who or that other communications are in any way being invaded in that manner but there is an issue of Irish nationals in the United States or other European nationals who may telephone home or may send e-mails to friends or relations and who are not engaged in criminal activity but who are people in respect to whom there should be no suspicious and who have entitlements to privacy. In that context there is a meeting scheduled this week between the European Union and the United States as part of the European Presidency. That meeting is taking place in this State. We will be dealing with justice issues and I expect that Europe's concerns about some of the revelations will form part of the conversion and that, on behalf of the European Union, I will be leading that conversation. I am hoping that our American colleagues will share with us the information that is available to address the concerns that have arisen in this context. That is as far as I should put it, but the Senator asked if I have been asked to sanction any surveillance by the United States. To answer the Senator directly, the answer is "No".